Lessons from a Middle School Counselor: Insights from Phyllis Fagell

Ever wondered why middle school can feel like a turbulent ride not just for kids, but for parents too? In this episode, we dive deep into the world of middle schoolers with our special guest, Phyllis Fagell. Phyllis, a seasoned middle school counselor, shares her unique insights into the complexities of adolescence, identity formation, and the pivotal role that parents and educators play.

Whether you're a parent, educator, or simply curious about the intricacies of this developmental stage, this episode offers a fresh perspective. Phyllis debunks some common misconceptions about the middle school experience and provides valuable strategies to navigate this often misunderstood phase.

Timeline Summary

[0:00] How to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance, and a happy home.
[6:38] Middle school is a phase of enormous growth and development, not suffering.
[10:51] What should we look for when we see bullying.
[15:00] Being different makes you a target in middle school, it’s associated with bullying.
[20:52] How to talk to your kids so they don’t feel like they’re disappointed in you.
[22:47] Where do we get the crazy idea that in order to help kids do better, we have to make them feel worse?
[26:21] What is it about the brains of kids at this age?
[33:52] When children identify with a core value, it improves academic performance in a way that persists.
[37:43] The importance of having male influences in a boy’s life.
[43:03] Why is it so hard for parents and schools to help kids with racial and ethnic differences?
[48:46] What’s the difference between a real apology vs. a “sorry”?
[57:03] Why is it so hard for parents to love their kids for who they are?

Links & Resources

- Phyllis's website: phyllisfagell.com
- Phyllis's book, Middle School Matters: phyllisfagell.com/middle-school-matters/

I hope you enjoy this episode of "The Self-Driven Child". If you found our conversation with Phyllis Fagell insightful, please take a moment to rate and follow our podcast, share this episode with others, and leave a review. Your feedback helps us bring more meaningful content to you. Thanks for tuning in!

If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com

Transcript

Phyllis Fagell  0:00  
I'm really actually not convinced that our experiences in middle school are markedly worse than experiences we had at other times in our life. We had zero perspective. We had no life experience. We were forming identities and trying to figure out if we were good enough. And having that framework, I think it's helpful for parents to understand and maybe dread the face a little bit less.

Ned Johnson  0:25  
Welcome to the self driven Job Podcast. I'm your host, Ned Johnson, and co author with Dr. Williams pictured of the books, the self driven child, the science and sense of giving your kids more control over their lives. And what do you say, how to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance, and a happy home. Every stage of life is important for children in developing skills in their sense of themselves in self regulation, figuring out friends, school, all of that stuff. But arguably, no time of life is more significant than the middle school years. And for those of you are parents whose kids trafficked middle school during COVID, you know how disruptive that was. I'm delighted to bring back this conversation with Phyllis bagel. She's a middle school counselor, a counselor in private practice, and also a parent of delightful children who have this point got past Middle School Oh, and the author of Middle School Matters 10 lessons about what we can learn from middle school rather than just seen as a time to endure and burn all the pictures thereafter. A powerful time for kids to develop confidence competence skills that use an adult life and yes, character. I'm really grateful to Phyllis for writing this book. And for joining me in this conversation. Phyllis Fagan, she's a school counselor for the Sheridan school in Washington DC. She provides therapy to children, teens and adults in private practice at the chrysalis group. She's the mother of three terrific teenagers. And the reason why she's with us today. She's the author of Middle School Matters, the 10 key skills kids need to thrive in middle school and beyond, and how parents can help. So Phyllis, welcome. What a fun book, what I mean, and it what comes through to me is what a cool job. You have not an easy one. But a cool job, which I suppose in many ways is what parenting is really like a cool, but not an easy job. So let me start with why write this book. Now. I mean, now ish. I know it's been out for a little while. But But why write this book now?

Phyllis Fagell  2:37  
You're absolutely right, that I have the best job on the planet. And people seem to disagree. When I mentioned that a middle school counselor, I don't always get the enthusiastic response that I would expect from such an awesome job. But one of the things about being a middle school counselor is that you're operating in a space where there really isn't a lot of information. There isn't a lot of research, historically, people divided kids either into that young childhood bucket and focused on early literacy skills and the the beginning of elementary school. And then there was this other bucket, which was later adolescence and that transition to college. And that was when things started taking content. Last and all of that or lumped in with one of those groups where this was this cohort of middle schoolers. And so when I started working as a counselor, there really wasn't much for me to draw on. Because I had started my career as a journalist, I thought, you know, what, maybe I will, I'll create the missing narrative. Yeah, kind of like to pad for myself.

Ned Johnson  3:41  
Well, that's so curious. Because, you know, is is you make abundantly clear in the book and, and all of us who sort of, you know, come back through our memories, arguably the most challenging time of, of our, of our childhood in school, is middle school. And so the idea that there was very little for folks, is kind of amazing to me, I mean, when your, your book has just every page is just dripping with advice and insights and things that we you know, kind of pull our hair out about, and they did that that wasn't kind of anywhere, at least in in an organized way is really something so thank you for reading the book and bringing it together for folks. So what are the things that people most misunderstand about middle school and middle schoolers? What do we what do we just get slapped on?

Phyllis Fagell  4:33  
So I can pick to start with what we're bringing to the table as parents and I think we bring to the table are all of our own memories, which for some of us, I don't know about you. They're, at best, pretty neutral. But for some people, they're traumatic and seared into their memories of this really horrible time where they just didn't feel good in their own skin. And what I remind parents is that we If it feels that way, and you remember it that way, but really what was happening is that you were going through puberty you are experiencing the phase or the time when every emotion, was it, Chen. And I'm really actually not convinced that our experiences in middle school are markedly worse than experiences we had other times in our life. We had zero perspective, we had no life experience, we were forming identities and trying to figure out if we were good enough, and put all of that together. And it's a perfect recipe for really struggling during that time. So having that framework, I think, is helpful for parents to understand and maybe dread the face a little bit less. And also, to really consider how they're messaging Middle School to to their own kids. I think a lot of us go off of the cultural rhetoric movies like meanwhile, the two masks, middle schoolers, they've all seen mean, girls, and they all have that added level of anxiety entering the face, assuming that kids are going to suddenly overnight turning to mean cruel, horrible drama seeking people. And I don't think that's what Middle School is about at all. Yes, there are kids trying on mean behavior. Yes, there are kids who are clumsy, and she don't always factor in how their actions will make someone else feel. And yes, there's this hierarchy that emerges in the absence of any formal hierarchy in the school setting. However, most of the mistakes that kids make are actually rooted in the fact that they're still learning. It's not coming from this place where for this brief period of time, they have poor character. And there are people

Ned Johnson  6:38  
in that, that that point about what we experienced, and what remember, is such a good one, it makes me think of Daniel Kahneman that there's the remembering self. And so to your point, how we as parents, and as educators, talk to kids about this seems to me, it's going to have a really big impact on how they think about and reflect on these experiences that they're going to have in middle school. One of the things that I think comes through so nicely in your book, is that this is a phase of enormous growth and development, it isn't it isn't two years of suffering that everyone has to just get through to get to better things that but that it was, I guess there's a reason why we call it growing pains. And there's so much, and there's just so much going on with kids at that age. What are some of the kind of singular challenges do you think or, you know, particular challenges that middle school that are, then make Middle School such a period of growth compared to you know, the years right before then,

Phyllis Fagell  7:37  
when kids go to middle school, they suddenly are given a lot more independent, they are no longer in the care of one caring adult, who is their homeroom teacher, the academic demands increase, they're going through all kinds of changes, and they're not doing it suddenly at the same pace as their peers. So that really close friend from elementary school might suddenly be having pressures and putting on makeup, and you're still playing with your teddy bears. And that's really painful. And it's also a time that's characterized by a lot of social shifting. And one of the things that I tried to do to soften the experience for students is normalize all of that churn. Know that three quarters of friendships aren't going to make it from fall to spring, a statistic that always blows kids minds, is that only 1% of seventh grade friendships make it to 12th grade. And

Ned Johnson  8:26  
1% 1%. I must have missed that in your book. My goodness,

Phyllis Fagell  8:30  
I don't think it's in my book, I

Ned Johnson  8:32  
learn something new even now. This is great. Yeah, and

Phyllis Fagell  8:35  
what I the reason I share that statistic, and the reason why I think it's so compelling for parents to understand, too, is that the 1% reflects the fact that it's not that kids are getting rejected because there's something inherently wrong with them. It's because this is when kids are learning how to be a friend and how to choose a friend. And all of that churn is just part of that learning process.

Ned Johnson  8:57  
It's so good. I have I have one of my all time favorite students, whose gosh, she's probably 40. Now, just and I just I couldn't have liked her as a person more. She's just a terrific human being. And somehow we got to talking about middle school. And this goes back to meeting girls point. And she said that she said I was the meanest kid in seventh grade. And I looked at and I couldn't I couldn't believe it. And she said, Oh, yeah, I was just I was absolutely terrible. And there's some you know, probably some reasons for that. And one of the things that you want the points you make in the book that I like so much, is that where kids are socially that they're not stuck that right that interesting, you know, they're trying on new friends, they're they're trying on new roles, new identities, new ways of behaving, which involves new friends, which can probably be horrifying for us as parents watching. Are you kidding me with me, but it also is such a cause for such a reason for I think for us as parents to relax have, you know and to not not catastrophize right to think that things are going poorly now that this is the kid, my kid is going to be malcontent? 35 I mean, is that just is that just that's just part of the deal? Hmm.

Phyllis Fagell  10:13  
Yeah, I love that you point out how painful it is for parents, because in the book, I talked about this idea that your social status isn't fixed as a way to reassure a child, that not only are they likely to have a successful thriving social life throughout their lifetime, but also this idea that kids who are not kind to could change and become better people. And I like this twist, which is that parents need that reassurance to whether their kid is the one who's lashing out and being mean, or their kid is the one who's targeted. It's reassuring to us as parents, and I have three kids, myself, my youngest is in middle school entering seventh grade. And it's a good reminder for all of us that none of this is fixed. And all of those mistakes and poor choices that kids make in the face, we don't want to deprive them with that or try to fix it. Because if we fix it, or deprive them of the opportunity to go through it, they're likely to make far more impactful poor choices later on in their life with their life mate, or whatever other relationships they're enduring later on.

Ned Johnson  11:09  
And it's so good. I know you have a I forget who the expert in your book is. But but it makes the point that optimistic kids and I think this would apply to optimistic parents as well. view things is temporary and specific. So things don't go well. That's just this thing that's not my whole life. And I think it's it's, again, as you point out something they can cause and cause, calm our nervous systems and make us feel confidence, we go for it. Now you talk about, you know, kids treating others poorly or being treated poorly by others. Can you use her to give us a kind of an overview about the bully bullies and the bullied? And what should we know to look for? And, and when we see it, what should we do? And maybe perhaps just importantly, what we as parents not do?

Phyllis Fagell  11:56  
So a question that I often get from parents is, you know, what do I I don't need or an assumption of parent might make is that I don't need to worry because my child has friends, and my child is well like, but there's research showing that if your child has friends, and as well, like odds are they're being unkind to somebody, because within that middle school social structure, everyone is stepping on the heads of the person. And the research shows that kids who are aggressive or who use power and aggression in order to gain status, they, over the course of their lifetime have higher rates of addiction, higher rates of depression and mental illness, they have less job stability, they achieve less academically. And so we want to really be targeting that mean behavior from a young age as much as possible and not just dismissive and say, well, they seem to be generally okay, they have friends. And also as parents in their middle school phase, if we hear kids in our car, let's say we're driving our child and their friends around town, and we hear them making unkind comments or planning something that might humiliate another child, I think a lot of parents get stuck, should I get involved should I not get involved. And while we do want to allow our children to make those mistakes, we do want to be speaking up when in our presence, we hear something unkind, we want to be modeling what we expect from them. And the there's a lot of power in the disappointment of a parents that don't lot of power in the disappointment as a coach of a teacher of any adults in the child's life. And this is such an impressionable age, where they're still forming that moral identity. And we have this opportunity to get in there and influence how they treat other people that we don't want to let those opportunities apply.

Ned Johnson  13:37  
Well, this is Ella love that, you know, you you made the point that when kids I'm sure it applies to us as parents as grownups as well, you know that when we criticize other people, we really prime ourselves to be vulnerable to the criticism of other people. When you talk about we talk a lot about modeling. So can you give us an example of what a parent can do to kind of help in in a healthy way? model what, you know, criticism might look like because I'm not gonna, you know, I don't like everybody, not everybody likes me, right? And I can be, you know, it's, you know, it's okay for me as a kid, as a parent to be upset about this person or that person, what might that look like to model in kids a healthy way that their feelings are legitimate, but there's a kind of a more appropriate or less appropriate way

Phyllis Fagell  14:25  
to be authentic. And I think it's a mistake to tell your children you expect them to like everybody or to be friends with everybody. And it would come across as completely inauthentic to pretend that we felt like everybody, but one of the things that we can talk about with kids is power dynamics, and when they are talking about a child in a disparaging way, and you as the parent recognize that that is a child who doesn't have a lot of friends or perhaps has some difficulties with social skills. or have some learning challenges that make them stick out. And really, that's one of the hardest things to cope with in middle school is being different makes you a target. It's associated with bullying, and really hammering home for your child that if you have more power, if you have the if you have friends, and you're happy that we want to be looking out for people who are more vulnerable, and modeling that for them, showing them in your own life, how you're reaching out to people in a way that is helpful. If you've got two kids who are on the same on a level playing field, and they're having a disagreement, we can be talking to them about the difference between arguing over an issue and making an ad hominem attack. You can ask Siri and teach him

Ned Johnson  15:41  
some nifty vocabulary to and that's.

Phyllis Fagell  15:45  
It sounds like you're really frustrated with this friend, you just said you hated her. That's a really strong way to talk about how you're feeling? What is it that she has done? What could she you know, what could you say to her to address that specific incident and feel heard? And how do you think she might respond? And what's a constructive way to handle the situation? So the, something you said earlier is related to this, this idea that when we get stuck in negativity, and when we message things in a negative way, that's where we are emotionally. So it's counterintuitive. But if a child is complaining and venting, they may actually make themselves feel worse, as opposed to listening, validating their feelings, and then say, you know, I would be pretty upset too if a friend had spread a rumor about me. So let's talk about what you can do next. How can we put an end to this? How would you like to proceed, get making sure we're reminding kids that they get to choose their friends in middle school, don't have to hang out with someone who makes them feel crappy, they can block people on social media who bother them think that isn't necessarily intuitive. And then as parents, we have to be super patient. Because we can see in an instant, when someone is unkind to our child, we can see in an instant when two friends are incompatible. And they're on a collision course. And this is not going to end well. And all we want to do say stop. No, of course, abort change course. And unfortunately, there's a lot of interference in middle school, you know, you want to fit in, they make that maybe a peer group that they want to be a part of, they might worry that the person will target them if they're not in that group. So we have to be asking questions that get them to think critically about those friendships, as opposed to telling them what to do, and then sit back and let it play out recognizing that it can take appreciating a long time for them to realize this friendship is for them.

Ned Johnson  17:35  
If only they were interpersonal airbags for those collisions that would make it easier to raise. What makes them want to sort of emphasize in how you're describing that is, and and obviously this is because you're you know, a trained a trained therapist, and you have all this experience doing this. But in those in those words, talking about how you would talk to a kid at no point are you telling her him how to think you're validating, you know, their feelings? I can understand that the hard way. And what do you think? And can you kind of talk through as I sort of here, there's, there's validating, and then there's asking questions. And why that is so much more effective than telling kids, here's what you should have done, what's going on from a brain perspective.

Phyllis Fagell  18:21  
So for young adolescent, for a middle schooler, they are going to misinterpret the tone or the intent of your words about 40% of the time. And so we want to make sure that we are consistent in our body language and the words we choose and our facial expressions. And we also want to make sure that we are in no way transmitting judgment, which is what they're going to default to when what we consider very neutral comments to them is going to come off is incredibly critical. And the the way to get around that the default to get in there and have the conversation without them shutting down is to start from a place of curiosity. And that's where questions come in. And I don't mean judgmental questions like why the hell did you do that? That's wrong with you. What were you saying? You know that that's not gonna get you anywhere?

Ned Johnson  19:17  
What were you thinking? Right? We say that in our heads, probably in a feeling that we're being inquisitive when the reality is we're sort of leading an inquisition, right?

Phyllis Fagell  19:28  
Yeah, exactly. I think you say that in my book at one at one point as well. I love that.

Ned Johnson  19:34  
I have no idea anyway. If you're listening, I appreciate that, fellas.

Phyllis Fagell  19:42  
Yeah. And so if we instead ask them, you know, tell me you know, which of your friends make you laugh them out? Or if you are racist, who is your go to friend and this is another concept that's really hard for middle schoolers to understand this idea that well One person isn't going to meet all of your needs, and no one friends is perfect. And guess what you're not perfect either, even though you might feel that you are and that you're. And so we can think about it in terms of bucket. Two is the person you want to hang out with when you want to feel light and airy, who is the person who helps you really concentrate when you need to do a group project, who is the person who believes you and you're feeling really crappy about yourself, who is the person who you know, will always keep a secret, who is the person who may not be able to keep a secret, but it's so much fun. And by assembling a broader group of friends, you really, you reinforce the idea that you don't have to be perfect either. For failure, and also, it's protective, because if a couple of those friendships aren't going so well, you probably have some, some others on reserve that you could turn to and those darker times,

Ned Johnson  20:52  
one of the things you may share there is how to talk to kids. So they if even when we may be disappointed by something that they've done, that we don't feel like they're just the we're disappointed in them about people, right? I mean, you know, I can, I can imagine what you're talking about the chapter about homework that a kid comes home with a with a sub optimal, right grade, or test or whatever. And, and how do we as parents, not catastrophize less they can think we're upset, you know, add them for getting a bad grade rather than upset with them for for the kid feeling disappointed? Do you when you coach parents, who maybe they have the tendency to to lead lead to jump into those conversations with perhaps maybe a tad more energy that might be productive? Do you have kind of one or two, three, you know, things that it Okay, now, here's before you have a conversation about this, I really suggest you try. But because some of this is not just the message that you're you're you're imparting to us as parents, but also how you coach us as messengers to deliver that

Phyllis Fagell  21:57  
pressure to know yourself. And so if you know that you're going to have a knee jerk reaction to a bad grade, or if it's going to trigger your own anxiety, and really what you're talking about his parental anxiety, no one test is going to tank a kid. But it could be a curveball for a parent, for him. That's a trigger. And so if you know that about yourself, you can come up with some set phrases in advance, or you can have one comment that you make, and you take a little bit of time and space away from your child so that you're not bringing that that negative energy to the conversation. Another thing I think is that's important to remember is no kid wants to fail, due to poorly on a test. And so essentially, what you're doing is kicking someone when they're down. And up bad, dark place. I don't know. Any students,

Ned Johnson  22:47  
what was the Jay Nelson line said? Where do we get the crazy idea that in order to help kids do better, we first have to make them feel worse, right? She's

Phyllis Fagell  22:57  
talking about middle school where the stakes are very low. And to me, if a child does poorly on a test in middle school, what a great opportunity, once the moment has passed, and it's not so raw, to take a look at what went wrong, we're not in there. Because we want kids to emerge from middle school knowing what they need to be successful, to be able to study, to know how to self advocate and go ask for help from a teacher to have a sense of what gets in their way, maybe they shouldn't have put it off until the last minute, maybe they looked at the wrong worksheet, whatever went wrong, I think we should be grateful, actually, as parents when things don't go perfectly so that we have a chance to help them boost those skills. So maybe it's a reframing in the parents mind from failing a quiz to opportunity to help my child develop some of the skills when not life.

Ned Johnson  23:50  
Well, that's so good. And one of the things that that I think that one of the great lessons for me of Middle School Matters is that these are tools, these are skills, and no one is born, you know, we may all have sort of fall into strength with with one or several of these 10 key skills that you talk about, but no one's born with, with all of them, right? And just like we have to be taught math or to play the piano or, you know, conjugate French or something. These are developable skills or tools, right? And so and so your point that you know, screwing up making mistakes, you know, failing Middle School is the perfect time to do this, in part because, you know, from a from a parental angst perspective, these grades don't follow you. Anywhere, right? You have a you make a point in the book that if my goal is a parent is to make sure that my kid gets everything right. I'm really sacrificing something if I also have a goal of wanting my kid to be independent. So tell me tell me more. I'm like, why can't I can't do both?

Phyllis Fagell  25:00  
So, as parents, I think it's natural and instinctive to want to shield our kids from all this comfort. And we don't want them to get that low grade and feel bad, we want to call the school and immediately get everybody agitating to give them the support that they need. And what we really want to be doing is bolstering their ability to do that for themselves. And that doesn't mean that you back off completely. That's another misconception about middle school that this is when parents should just take a huge step back and say I'm out. They really need you to help them develop those skills. But it might look like a step is you doing it for them sending an email to their teacher for them, but next to you and watching you do it. And then the next step is that they're doing it and you're sitting next to them and making sure there's a proper salutation and that it's respectful, and gets their point across. And then the last step is that they're doing it on their own. And the key part is that once they can do it on their own, you don't go back and do it for them not because you're rushing, not because it would be more expedient, not because you just want to make sure it happens. But you really have to have that restraint. And let them continue to take ownership of that going forward. That's how they they learn and retain those skills.

Ned Johnson  26:17  
My son is you know, is like your son just graduated high school. And we were reflecting the other day, I don't know why this popped into my mind. But in middle school, there was the egg drop in the science class, the physics class or whatever. And in a in a, just a brutally tragic parenting failed, I inserted myself into this because I thought it sounded super fun. And I knew physics, and I can tutor physics and blah, blah, blah. But of course, this is really a first of all, it's his work. And to this is experimentation. It's not like an advanced degree in physics, it's going to get you anywhere. And so there was mistakes were made. And so instead of creating a parachute for the egg drop, because I misunderstood something, we basically made a guided missile. And this little tiny parachute behind, I thought I understood things correctly, with perfectly so it turns out, you got points for if the egg landed safely. And you got points, if how close it was to the target, right. So if you have a really big open parachute, it lands safely, but you know, lands 50 feet away, we hit the target spot on, because it was sort of like we projected that a you know, out of out of a sling shot straight at the target and smash was terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. But we do get to laugh about it now. So I guess there's I guess there's that. What is it about the brains of kids at this age? What are some of the structural differences? Because one of the things I know I've said this myself, I know I've heard my wife, probably every parent in the world say, why can't they when are they going to is though, saying the same message over and over that it's finally going to sink in. And when a lot of times we mistakenly believe that it's how we say something or how many times we say something that will change the behavior when honestly, gosh, a lot of it is just brain development. So for parents who have not yet read your book, can you talk a little bit about what's actually going on with the brain so we can let them off the hook and give ourselves a break too. And just, you know, trust the gift of time.

Phyllis Fagell  28:25  
So we know that child's brain is not fully developed, a boy may inhale 20 sacks of girl until or you know, the girls love it when I tell them that their brain probably will be fully developed before their male classmates. They completely relate to that. And that's the part of the brain that's constantly developed is the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain that's responsible for things like empathy and logical thinking and problem solving. And so you can say something a million times, but that doesn't account for the interference, they're going to be experiencing that moment when they're at a party and the girl they like is there. And that girl wants them to drink with them. And they know they shouldn't, because you've told them that 100 times. But in that moment, the power of wanting to impress this girl or be with this girl takes over. And so understanding that emotions are powerful, the brain is instantly developed. And that is why they make so many mistakes. It's why they need so much coaching and guidance. One of the something that's not in the book, but that I really like and that I learned about after Middle School Matters came out is something called inoculation theory, and loss pumpkin at Dartmouth, who has done a lot of work in this area. And it's the idea that you can prime kids for experiences that would probably put them in with that might tempt them to take an unnecessary risk or to make a poor choice by explaining what that situation is and what the temptation might be. So it might be You might be in a situation where you've got some really juicy gossip, and you are at lunch, and every all eyes are on you, and you have an opportunity to share this unbelievably exciting piece of information, this awesome story. And everyone knows in middle school that the best story wins, and you're carried away in that moment, you're going to be intoxicated with the power of having this information, and you might want to share it so that people are transfixed, and people want to be around you. But you know, what's even more powerful, you know, it feels even better than being that center of attention. And having the best story being known as the person who everyone can trust being known as a person who can keep a secret. And when they're in that situation, they may not always do the right thing, but they're going to have that voice in your head. You can do it for vaping, you can do it for anything, you tell them what the situation might be, what the temptation is, why they might want to do it, and then give them a compelling counter argument for why they should take a different tact. And what just compensation shows is that if you do that, for enough scenarios, you can generalize it. So it actually has a protective effect when they're faced with temptations that you didn't find them to expect. Maybe you never got to cheating on a test and when the exercise of why you would be tempted and why you shouldn't do it. But they might still be able to make that right call, because you've taught them how to think through these dilemmas in a different way.

Ned Johnson  31:38  
Wow, that's really good. So if I can repeat that back, I really it's not my job, nor is it is it necessary for, for me or for any parent to kind of cover every scenario. But if we talk through it, have them visualize it, discuss it roleplay, what have you. And we do this for, you know, five or six or seven things, they I then learn that model. And I can apply it to other situations that weren't covered are ones that are parents who haven't even dreamed up yet.

Phyllis Fagell  32:08  
Yes. And the other thing parents can do that's really powerful is to articulate their values. And one way to do that, that's kind of fun. And you can do it with your child is to do a Values card sort. And the Values card sword is something you can google online, it's about 100 different values ranging from responsibility to humor to energy, you know, everybody's going to have a different set of core values, and some people are going to want more risk in their life, some people are going to prioritize money, and some people are going to prioritize stability or security, what you do is you print out the 100 cards. And you can even order a stack of these cards and have your child sort the deck of cards and choose their top 10. And I think it's powerful if parents do it as well. So you're not saying we're going to agree on the same values, I'm going to share my values, you're going to share your values. And once you get that top 10 Find some one through 10. And then talk about why they chose the values that they chose talk about why you chose the values futures. Explain that those values might change over time. But that is important, and where you are emotionally and at that moment. And then what they can do is take some time to internalize and remember which values they chose. And when they're in a difficult situation. Rather than try to figure out all the intricacies of what they should do to simply say which of these two choices is consistent with my core values, and go back to those values that they chose. And more often than not, they're going to make the right choice. And if they make the wrong choice, more often than not, they'll at least have a compelling reason that they can tell themselves for why they made the choice. They did easier to live with the decision.

Ned Johnson  33:52  
Wow, I love that, you know, that makes me think about there's in our book, villainize our book, there's a, we talked about writing exercise, which you may know where students write about a core value and you know, it's kind of one time intervention write a paragraph about it, and it actually improves academic performance in a in a way that persists because it's exactly as you describe, when when, when I identify when children identify with a core value, then if I if I go and face a math test, right and I'm really stressed out, I don't do well. Well, maybe that threatens my you know, self concept as a mathematician. But if I've if I've really been primed to think about myself as you know, a good friend or a person who's honest or someone who believes environment or social justice, those things aren't threatened. I may need a calculator but that but but it lowers boy, I love it. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to look that one up. It's I suspect it's never too late. You know? I suspect it's never too late to do that kind The thing and what I'm thinking not just for kids, but for ourselves. So for all of us, to identify with, to identify with core values is such a helpful way to get us help us get through anything. And goodness knows, for most of us, there's a lot to be getting through right now.

Phyllis Fagell  35:16  
It's also a really helpful way for adults to make decisions. I joke with my third child that he exists because of the Values card sort, having helped with my values, you know, and I was weighing the pros and cons of having a third kid, and I'm not sure if he appreciates that or not, but he owes a lot to that value card sort. But whether or not to leave a job, it could be whether or not to move to another city could be anything, really. But if you make a decision that's in accordance with your values, it's easier to live with it after the fact, even if it doesn't turn out to be the right choice for you ultimately,

Ned Johnson  35:51  
wow. And where my brain is going to is, is making those decisions based on my values that I identify as opposed to out of fear. Because I think so many decisions are ultimately made out of fear, right? Because you talked about, you know, the prefrontal cortex, which is all that planning, decision making, but also empathy, as opposed to, you know, the middle, which is a theory action. Point, I like that a lot. I want to pivot for a second, you've talked a bit about here about boys and girls, and you you spend an entire chapter about boys and the challenges of boys and opportunities that boys and girls, can you sort of thumbnail sketch, what are some of the, you know, big trends? How is middle school different for boys than it is for girls? And perhaps what are some of the ways that we as parents need to support boys different Lee than how we support girls?

Phyllis Fagell  36:43  
You know, I think that the over the last 50 or so years, we've made a lot of strides in terms of empowering girls that we've had, for as many years as I've been at my school, a female empowerment group, girls really have internalized this message that they can do anything be anything and that they should have equal access to sports. They have learned how to agitate for their own rights. But the corollary is that we haven't really done the same for boys. And we still put forth this misguided concept, this antiquated concept that there's one right way to be a boy. And it's something that comes through in the media, in politics and sports. And what it creates are a lot of middle school boys who are insecure about the fact that they don't fit into that, quote unquote, man box, it's not something that reflects who they are or who they want to be. I've had many students tell me that they don't feel like it's okay to say that they'd like one trusting friend is like a best friend, or it's not okay to say that they don't like sports, or they're supposed to pretend they're not into reading. And so I think we, we have to open that man box a bit for our boys, one of the more powerful ways to do that is to have male influences in a boy's life doesn't have to be a father, but the coach could be male teachers, it could be a neighbor and uncle, really reinforcing this concept that there isn't one right way to be a boy. And just combating that, that societal message a bit for them and relieving some of the pressure that they feel. Whereas one of the things I think girls still struggle with, in contrast, to avoid there being all Blustery and trying to pretend that they're great, and all this perfect, and thank you, me, I know that they have to conceal their strengths, that they have to dial back their accomplishments, and they tend to focus more on things that are superficial when they're putting themselves up front. So one of the things that I've written about is this idea of really encouraging girls to do something called twofer two. So two, every time a friend of yours does something substantive, meaningful meaning not a nice haircut, or have a fun party, but maybe they worked up the nerve to run a half marathon or maybe they spearheaded a food drive and and collected 13,000 cans. But when your friends do something that is an accomplishment that something that has meaning to on to share it on social media to share that as opposed to sort of the selfies and the party pics. Yeah. What I what would then happen is because girls are so reciprocal in nature is that that friend is going to return the favor. And it normalizes that, it's okay to be proud of what you've done and it's okay to support one another. You know, there's a lot of money There's also a big sense that there's this limited tie. And I think girls sometimes get torn apart and their relationships suffer because they are nervous that supporting somebody else could end up detracting from their opportunities. So, that is counterintuitive, but that nothing could be farther from the truth. And the cheaper to is just one way to reinforce this idea that it kicks off a positive cycle of supporting one another.

Ned Johnson  40:23  
That's really good. You know, as you know, in the subject and childhood, those fiction and I wrote, we talk quite a bit about how important that sense of control is to self motivation is to keeping the stress down. And what that what the two for two really points to me points to, is the idea of a, what fosters an internal locus of control rather than external locus of control. And since you're your psychologist, you know, do more than I can you just sort of share with people kind of what what that looks like or feels like a particularly as you point out in the kind of the middle school, social media world that girls especially are so influenced by?

Phyllis Fagell  41:09  
Yeah. When you talk about what's in a child's control versus what isn't in the child's control, and you look at the social piece, as one example, there are things that a kid has mastery over, they can control whether they're kind, they can control, whether they keep a secret, they can control whether they need someone at the appointed time that they said they would need somebody, those are all things within their control, they can control how hard they work, they can control whether they take a risk and try out for the play. What they can't control are things like whether or not they make that travel select team, or whether or not their father is the religious leader in a town in which that holds more currency than anything else. And control how much money their parents have. If it's a materialistic culture, they can't control, whether they're an athlete, they can control if they go for a run, they can control if they try to stay fit. And so one of the ways that we can really preserve our kids sense of self is when we're complimenting them, or when we're encouraging them to focus on the things that we know are within their control. You're such a great negotiator. I love how you helped your younger sibling, I really appreciate how responsible you were with our new puppy, as opposed to saying, you know, why can't you be like Drew who's on the football team? Or how come you didn't make the play? Recognizing today that if you're at this really insecure juncture in child development, it's hard to take risks. And pressuring a kid to do something that they're not ready to do or pushing them too far outside their comfort zone can actually backfire. If it doesn't go well, you know, forevermore that amygdala, you were talking about that part of the brain is going to fire danger, danger, danger. Them too hard to try out for something and they humiliate themselves. We want to be pushing them to take small risks, but comfortable risks, and we want to be focusing on the things that they can control.

Ned Johnson  43:03  
So that would be I love how curious you are as opposed to You're so smart. Exactly. Or what? Wait a second, Emily and the tennis go down fighting was that Penn's advice? Yeah, you don't know if you're gonna win, but go down fighting Kasi, that was such a good story. Yeah, he

Phyllis Fagell  43:21  
was a good brother. And that was a really good brother

Ned Johnson  43:23  
that I like, oh, man, somebody needs to make a short video about that that was so that was so fun.

Phyllis Fagell  43:29  
We all need a good big brother.

Ned Johnson  43:33  
We all deserve one, that's for sure. You know, take a few more minutes of your time here. But one of the things that, of course, has popped up in your talk about this in the in the book about, about identity and differences. Particularly, you know, you'd mentioned socio economic, but obviously, ethnic and racial and cultural differences. And that has become a much bigger part of the conversation and the world that kids are living in. Since you know, obviously, since Black Lives Matters, the events that have become such a part of the conversation. And that's tricky terrain for kids for any of us to navigate, right and even more so with kids who are still developing their linguistic tools and developing their empathy and developing more experience in the world. Can you talk a little bit I would love to talk about what your advice is to to parents to help kids through that. And then really sort of follow up conversation a question last minute about what we do when we make mistakes which of course we of course we do. But but lay the groundwork for is Why is it so hard for kids and or maybe maybe it's hard for parents and district kids? I'm not sure what what do you what do you say?

Phyllis Fagell  44:45  
Well, going back to the developmental phase and middle school and identity development, and they're already acutely aware of how they stack up to others and whether they're good enough and anything different is suspect in any way which creates fertile ground for exclusion or division. And so schools have to work really extra hard to create an environment in which kids are going to talk to people who are unlike them, it just goes against kind of the social order of middle school in a lot of ways. And it could be that it goes both ways. It's not necessarily it's everybody is looking for their like minded or similar background people. And so, you know, I think schools can do some things, they can mix up seating at lunch, you know, you don't want to strip kids of all control that maybe once in a while you have them sit by birthday by, by birthdays, or by some other interest area, or you mix up grades. And the goal is really to help kids, they have more in common than they might realize, at first glance. On the on the more extreme front, when you're talking about devastating events in the news that might be disproportionately impacting one group of students, I think the worst thing parents can do is to pretend it didn't happen, or to ignore it, or your child, ignore it, and what you want to be asking them again, this goes back to the curiosity rather than judgment. You know, tell me about what happened. How do you think that? Are there kids in your school who you think have been I thought about this a lot during DACA? Yeah. In your school who have been directly impacted by this event? Have you spoken to them about it? Now? What do you think you could do just some and really encouraging them to feel responsible as a member of the community for ensuring that everyone who's in that community feel safe and feel supported, and to also acknowledge that it's uncomfortable, I think it's something that our generation, you know, this generation of parents, as middle schoolers, we were raised, that it wasn't polite to talk about a lot of these issues. And there were no divisions that there were no differences. And that obviously, we know is not the right approach. As parents, we also can ensure our kids see that we ourselves are interacting with people who are not exactly the same as us in any number of different ways. You know, I think one of the quotes in my book was from the parent of an autistic girl. And she talks a lot about how it takes work to be included somebody in your life, who may not fit in as easily. And so parents can really model that it's worth it that enriches your life, to even if it means that there it's not easy to be more inclusive. And that same parent talk a lot about authentic inclusion, that inclusion isn't just, you know, a high in the hall. Inclusion is we you're one of us, we are going to invite you to our parties, we want you to sit with us at lunch, and I spoke to the organization beyond differences, and they have an event called No, I think it's no child eats alone, or no one eats alone. On that day, they encourage everybody to just sit with somebody who otherwise might be alone. And what they have found in their research from doing this experiment is that once they bridge that fear, once they get over that initial fear that maybe this person in a wheelchair, won't, I won't be able to relate to them and have a conversation. From then on. They don't have to work hard to have this. No one eats alone day that kids automatically vote out and be inclusive. They want to they want to have that child be a part of their life.

Ned Johnson  48:46  
I love that. Yeah, I'm a I'm a person in a wheelchair. I'm not, you know, the wheelchair, right? I'm not I'm not a wheelchair person. I am a person in a wheelchair. Yes. And then invariably, people make mistakes. Right? And you have the great line from Adam Grant your magician recall. He says he I'll try me if I may. I've probably read this. I've probably read it more recently than you know, he talks about as a psychologist Adam Grant says, I'm sorry for as opposed to I'm sorry. If Yeah, and meet him to me that goes back to the your, your idea your the point you make about modeling of how we can as parents do things better in order for our kids to watch them and what's what's one what's the difference? You know, I'm sorry for versus I'm sorry if well, you're

Phyllis Fagell  49:37  
it's kind of like using the word but like I thought you know that whatever comes after that, but it's going to negate the compliment. And so that if that same purpose, you're I apologize. And then you say yes, no, you did upset the person and a real apology and I even was very Don't kids work on teaching for parts of an apology, because a real apology means you acknowledge that you did wrong. You tell the person that you're sorry. And you ask them what you can do to make it better, actually make it better to the extent that you can, you know, a real apology has follow through. So, if we are trying to model that for our children, and just to underscore that conflict is normal, kids or parents have an argument. And that is not detrimental to their development, what's detrimental if they never see the resolution, if they never see that the parents worked it out that they were able to make amends. And so we want to be making sure that we're modeling for our children that yes, conflict happens, it's inevitable. And this is, now you're seeing us work it out. Doing that follow through,

Ned Johnson  50:58  
it's so good. And then I'll circle back to the idea that you're we're with that we're teaching kids, we're helping them develop skills and have tools to fix the world, or in this case, to fix their world when they make mistakes. Because given that they're likely human beings, they're pretty much likely to make mistakes. And so the idea that I don't have to run around being so afraid of taking risks so afraid of you know, so perfectionistic is though i The world would be safe if I never make a mistake, which is a terrible way to live life. As opposed to, I know that if I make a mistake, I have tools that I can I can make things better, I can make things right with my friend, when I've sent him a message, and I said something that hurt his feelings. You know, certainly, that was not my intent. But that certainly was the effect. And I can make it better if I can.

Phyllis Fagell  51:51  
Yeah, I heard something recently that I'm going to try in the future I haven't I've yet to have a couple of middle school guinea pigs to test this. Report back in

Ned Johnson  52:03  
your own lab, it's so great. But you but the they're not rats, they're human beings to actually give you immediate feedback. And

Phyllis Fagell  52:12  
yes, and they really are a metaphor for society. And a lot of ways, you know, middle school, really, there's so much in middle school, that's just the world. But the what I had heard that I would like to try is this idea that when you have two kids who have, let's say an argument or a disagreement, you can ask them to vote on what they would like to happen. You each get a vote. How would you like this to resolve? And then to the other person? How would you like this to resolve? And then there's a third entity that gets about in the third entity? Is that relationship itself, the friendship itself? And how would What if the friendship were going to get a vote, what would they say should happen?

Ned Johnson  52:55  
Oh, I love that. Because I know in the in the chapter about books and about boys, excuse me, you, you share that a lot of times, you know, if I get in a fight with then and because I don't know how to fix it, I oftentimes will just walk away from the friendship and the grave concern is that I then carry that forward with with kind of all relationships going forward, whether it's with my Boston, this employment, or you know, or romantic partner going forward. But I love that either the tiebreaker is what is

Phyllis Fagell  53:29  
the tiebreaker is that the relationship or the friendship gets about I think that's very helpful for a couple different framework, a different way of looking at decision.

Ned Johnson  53:39  
Oh, I love that. I love that. I get to work two more questions for you. Um, one of the things you know, you of course, leaning a lot on autonomy, and helping kids go, you know, have parents changing from being consultants to managers, or excuse me, for managers to consultants, right, you know, kids taking on to your point, they mom helps them write a good email, but then they read that email themselves, and we don't turn back. And we have kids develop these skills going forward, more and more and more. This COVID thing. It's made everything harder, right. And it also occurs to me that a lot of a lot of a lot of things that kids might be working with are struggling on their own. They don't have that kind of cover anonymity, because we're all to we're all in this together. Right. And, and, and, you know, there's, you have a great line in the end when we actually was talking about sex, which we're not going to spend time talking about, but um, you know, that we're going to we're going to do that we're going to talk about this privately, not because it's bad, but because it's private. Right? And how do we would you have advice for us as parents, when we're, we we have we're seeing more of what our kids are doing? How do we give them enough space, even though they don't get to disappear and go off in school? You know, for six or seven or eight hours a day, what's your advice during this COVID time.

Phyllis Fagell  55:05  
So, one, byproducts of COVID that I'm seeing, not only in my own house, but in many houses, is what I'm calling the vampire phenomenon where kids are up all night and sleeping. And my theory is, that is the only time they can get the house to themselves and have some free Oh, interesting. And so this is their solution, we're just gonna, if we're gonna have to share this space 24/7 Like this, I'm going to just alter my hours, so I can have a little bit more independence. And for kids who aren't doing that they might be behind closed doors for hours at a time and I've had a lot of parents ask me questions, should I worry about my kids disappearing behind the closed door with middle school, it's their prerogative, their developmental imperative is to pull away from their past and identify with their peers is what I think that the pandemic is hardest on this at any age group, although I would extend it a little bit beyond into high school prior to having driver's license, and being able to leave on their own. The desire for independence is so strong, that the world is suddenly dangerous. And everybody is home quarantining together. And that just flies in the face of their wiring. And I think we, as parents need to start from a place of empathy, and recognize that we, we should do what we can to give them that privacy that they need to provide openings to have conversations, obviously, if we have concerns if we think our kid has been, you know, perusing porn, or whatever, and we want to talk to them about it, you know, they, they're under our roof. And this is an opportunity to have those kinds of conversations. But if they want to have a couple of hours, in their room alone, doing whatever reading a book, we don't need to be you know, knocking down their door and saying, you know, what's going on? What are you doing? Come talk to me, just understanding it's not personal, it's developmental, it's where they are and what they need to be doing. And,

Ned Johnson  57:03  
and the right to have that privacy point. That's really good. I love the quote that you have in here from Ken give Ginsburg, who is of course, just a such a great thinker. And you write, you're sure that he writes, The themes of adolescence include, are my parents proud of me? Do I fit in with my peers? Am I capable at school? Do I have any idea what I can do with my life? Am I comfortable with my developing sexuality? And most basically, am I good enough? If you put all those questions together, you can begin to see why it matters so much that a parent loves a child for who they are. It's a beautiful line. It's a beautiful, what do you think? Why do you think that's so hard for parents, and you know, if you had, let's say, you know, one or two things of how we as parents can do that better because kids is you said before, they want to be successful, they want their lives to work out. It's just, you know, they're building a life. And that takes a lot of construction.

Phyllis Fagell  58:03  
We have to be honest with ourselves about when we are projecting our own anxiety on to our kids. And I think that particularly, you know, our culture is fairly individualistic and competitive. And whether or not that is adaptive these days is a good question. But we, it comes from this well meaning place of wanting to protect your children and set them up for success. But we have Ken Ginsburg with other quotes that really resonates with me is the wider the gap between who between who your child is and who they think you need them to be, the more they'll struggle.

Ned Johnson  58:42  
Oh, yes, I do. Yep, that is a really good point to emphasize.

Phyllis Fagell  58:48  
So really trying to appreciate your child's gifts, to recognize that they're still developing those gifts, they're still trying to figure out where their interests and their strengths align, and where they intersect. No one is good at everything. They're not just an extension of us, and really pausing to consider whether what we are messaging to them has more to do with our own feelings of insecurity or transmit those feelings of transference onto them, or whether this is something that we really need to be quote unquote, fixing. Allowing, allowing it to unfold allowing their interest to

Ned Johnson  59:26  
unfold. And it's that gap between where they are where we think they should be. That's in some ways more incumbent on us to close that gap than for them to write you know, not I love my kid more when he meets my expectations. But when I if I love him for more values and get my expectations more aligned with where he is.

Phyllis Fagell  59:49  
I share a story in the book about boy 14 or 15 year old boy who was having a lot of tension with his father. His father had been a division one A lacrosse player really wanted his child who was actually not that athletic to follow in his footsteps and play lacrosse, and he wanted to coach his youth teams. And by age 14 or so this child was done. And the parents creating so much friction and tension by emphasizing how important this was to him, come on, come on, he's got to play, you got to do this, that he not only was making this child to feel bad about himself, or that he was letting his father down, he also was failing to see the gifts that his child did possess. He could make things out of clay that were really intricate, and he just had this eye for art. And the father was completely missing that. And God had devotion to this idea of the kid being a lacrosse player. So it's not just what you're not getting, it's also what you're losing.

Ned Johnson  1:00:55  
Well, let's wrap it up then with the point that you share from Sally Sue the educator Sally Selby, because I think that encapsulates in a really lovely way, what you just shared of, when we try to when we try to push in certain ways, it's likely to cause all kinds of problems, both to our children and to our relationship with our kids. But we also ended up missing so much of those natural gifts that just need a little more sunshine to grow.

Phyllis Fagell  1:01:20  
Yeah, yeah, I think she says grow the tree you got right. I love this is a former middle school principal. And I, I think she's really wise. And it's good advice. And really, it's, um, you know, I wrote at one point, an article about how to how to tamp down the pressure on kids. And one of the things that I pointed out is that it's no longer a math to get straight A's or to do the right extracurriculars to get into college or to get the right job anyway, all of those rules are changing. And so you're not only not necessarily setting your child up for success, you're also stripping the opportunity to have a really rich and trusting relationship with your child.

Ned Johnson  1:02:06  
And you know, and I know the data all supports that not only how would I say this, it isn't necessary to be top 10% in school to be top to 10% in life, right? And if, if it feels like it was so hard to compete in grades or sports, because that's what everyone else is doing. My hunch is this boy with his artistic ability is in a wide open playing field and running for the endzone because there's no one trying to tackle him on the

Phyllis Fagell  1:02:37  
data, you're the one who made that quote in my book that I love, which is if you focus on creating a kid in the top 10% You're terrorizing everybody, because the kid in the top 10% is fighting to stay there. And the other 90% are feeling like they let their parents down and that they're doomed to fail life.

Ned Johnson  1:02:57  
And particularly, you know, when we, when we make the single criteria is though everyone needs to be a top students. I mean, I don't know, you know, I know you, you know, you flamed out as a waitress. But there are I mean, we all know so many people who are wonderfully, wonderfully successful and talented in the jobs that we that they do. And we have no idea where most of them went to college, I have no idea. I assume he went to college, I have no idea where he went to college, when I noticed that you've written a wonderful book that's incredibly useful for so many people. And particularly in this time, of coming to really value and appreciate diversity and in ways that we're slowly to get to that I think that that's important, not just for our society, but for our kids. I mean, to me, it's the equivalent of humans of biodiversity, right? Forests are more stable, and ecosystems when they're bio diverse. And it sure seems to me that school systems and societies are more stable and healthy and happier when we celebrate all of those kids and all of the various talents, and giving them the space in middle school to figure out which way they want to grow. Is just is such a blessing. I think all kids deserve and, and as I say, those, this this Middle School Matters, and the 10 schools that kids need to thrive in middle school and beyond that, and how parents can help can't forget that. It's a long title. It's a wonderful book. It's a wonderful book, and I just I love how much warmth and how much wisdom and and really practical advice there is to help kids navigate this difficult time of middle school and just as just as big a challenge for parents to be along for the ride with them. So so thank you for writing this book. And thanks for spending time with me. It's always fun to chat with you.

Phyllis Fagell  1:04:51  
I love talking to you always. And thank you for contributing to this book and sharing your wisdom because I love everything that you write as well.

Ned Johnson  1:05:02  
Hey folks, Ned here. Over the past 25 years, I've talked with 1000s of parents of high school students, parents who care deeply about their kids education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed. But these parents need to work with a team they trust will just pile on more pressure to achieve better grades and scores. This is why I started prep matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation, tutoring in college admissions planning. This podcast and my books reflect our company's philosophy and approach to helping students if you have a high school student and we'd like to talk about putting in place a plan, please get in touch with us, visit our website at prep matters.com or call 301-951-0350. That's 301-951-0350 Thanks

Transcribed by https://otter.ai