This Simple Fix Could Help Anxious Kids: A Conversation with Lenore Skenazy

I’m thrilled to have Lenore Skenazy, founder of the Free-Range Kids movement, as my guest on the show today. Lenore has been sounding the alarm about childhood anxiety and overprotection for years, and she shares powerful insights from psychology professor Camilo Ortiz’s recent research on how independence - not just accommodation - can help anxious kids thrive.

Timeline Summary:

[00:53] - Introducing Lenore Skenazy and the Free-Range Parenting movement.

[02:09] – Lenore’s New York Times article about how we’ve increasingly deprived kids of independence.

[06:15] - Camilo Ortiz tried “independence therapy” with anxious kids.

[08:33] - This therapy works like cognitive behavioral therapy but starting with intrinsic motivation.

[14:13] - Overprotection may make kids scared, not the world itself being scary. 

[16:19] - Taking away autonomy means no problem-solving.

[19:03] - Trying to protect makes kids anxious. Independence provides chances to gain optimism.

[24:32] - Activities create intrinsic motivation to overcome obstacles and build resilience.

[27:17] - We’ve taken the foot off the developmental brake.

[32:02] - Schools are ideal for “Let Grow” projects, normalizing independence among peers.

[33:33] - Holding kids back sends a dangerous message.

[43:32] - We must give kids freedom so they become brave, resilient adults.

Connect with Lenore Skenazy:

·         LetGrow.org

·         Free-Range Kids

·         The New York Times: Anxious Kids Need to Learn Independence. Here’s How Parents Can Help

Links & Resources:

·         The Croods Krispy Bear Dies! 

·         The National Library of Medicine: Learned Helplessness at Fifty: Insights from Neuroscience

·         Miss Peregrine’s Home for Peculiar Children

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode. If you found it insightful, I urge you to share it with others. And hey, if you enjoyed it, please don't forget to rate, follow, and review our podcast. Your support means the world to us. Until the next time, remember to love your kids and stay curious!

If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com

Transcript

Lenore Skenazy: 0:49

By the time you'll have parents all walking their kids to the bus stop and waiting at the bus stop by the time you have schools that won't let children self dismiss a new phrase, I guess I self dismissed as a child do because we just walked home from school, it was just normal. But what I feel has been happening is that when you take away all these opportunities for I don't know a little bit of curiosity, you know, you're walking home, what are those seeds on the trees? Or I wonder if I can be friend, the squirrel or how come that dog is always snarling. If you've taken away all the idea that I can handle this, you've taken all this away and you've replaced it with an adult, organized supervised chaperoned activity from one to the next to the next from school to Kumon to soccer, to signing the reading log to helping with the homework to tucking them into bed and getting them up in the morning and driving them again. Something is missing in kids lives. And that is the opportunity to be part of life to be something other than a precious, beloved object taken from place to place so that their time and education will be optimized.

Ned Johnson: 1:56

Welcome to the self driven Job Podcast. I'm your host, Nick Johnson, and co author with Dr. Williams pictured of the books, the self driven child the science and sense of giving your kids more control over their lives. And what do you say, how to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance, and a happy home? We all know too many kids are or are becoming too anxious. As parents as teachers, were likely racking our brains looking for answers asking ourselves what can we do about it, which makes all the sense in the world, except that paradoxically, the inclination of we as grownups can do may actually be contributing to as much as solving the problems of childhood anxiety. To discuss this, I'm delighted to have as my guest someone who knows a lot about what helps once labeled the worst mother in America Lenore skinnies, He is perhaps best well known to you as the pioneer of free range parenting. She's also the CO creator of let grow a nonprofit that's focused on promoting childhood autonomy and all the good things that come from that. Welcome lonar.

Lenore Skenazy: 2:59

Wow, thanks. I was I was ready to listen to more. I was like, like, what else have I done? Yes, not.

Ned Johnson: 3:07

So I want desperately to talk about your being the quote unquote, worst mother in America, which I think we'll get to there. But can we jump in with the article that you and your colleague wrote for The New York Times recently that caught a lot of people's attention? Boy, that was a buzzy comments section, there

Lenore Skenazy: 3:23

was yes, I didn't realize they turn off the comments. After two days, I was like, you know, me, obsessively, already figured me out. So self absorbed that all I do is a refresh to the comments page to see how many people have commented, and it was 851. And then the next day, it was still 851. I thought that's weird. But of course, they staunch the flow at some point. So the article was sort of a summation of everything that I've been saying for a long time. Now with added scientific validity. And what I've been saying for a long time is that our kids are smarter and safer and stronger than our culture gives them credit for. You know, over the decades, we've been sort of taking away their independence to the point where the article begins with the story that a friend told me that she lives in suburban Kentucky, and his 12 year old went to houses down to visit a friend. And then when the play date, which is a horrible word was over the mother that the other mother the mother, two houses down walked this girl back, wow, this this tween, it was interesting. And I you know, even it's just you can't see that there's no danger because I can't say that there's no danger of me sitting on my chair. You never know when a bird might, you know, hit the window and glass flies into my eye over the glasses. And and then I'm blind for life. But you can pretty much say that sitting in a chair is safe. And I'd say you can pretty much say that a 12 year old walking two houses down in suburban Kentucky is as safe as safe can be. But obviously this other mother didn't think so. And so I've been interested in first of all, how we got to that point. And secondly, that it's become so normal that kids really are deprived of even the autonomy of not everybody's being watched to houses down but by the time you have parents all walking their kids to the bus stop and waiting at the bus stop by the time you have schools that won't let children self dismiss a new phrase. I guess I self dismissed as a child due because we just walked home from school it was just normal but now it's considered so abnormal that apparently they're asked to sign a waiver or they have to come in and sign the child out but you know proving that the child is going to be chaperone on however long a walk it is home. What I feel has been happening is that when you take away all these opportunities for I don't know a little bit of curiosity you know you're walking home, what are those seeds on the trees or I wonder if I can be friend the squirrel or how come That dog is always snarly, if you've taken away all the idea that I can handle this, oh my gosh, I'm going to walk around this home this bird, whatever it is, the opportunities to be a person in the world and figuring things out and solving the most minor problems. Boy, it's hot, I'll put, you know, I'll wear a hat. I mean, you've taken all this away and you've replaced it with an adult, organized supervised chaperoned activity from one to the next to the next from school to Kumon to soccer, to signing the reading log to helping with the homework to tucking them into bed and getting them up in the morning and driving them again, something is missing in kids lives. And that is the opportunity to be part of life to be something other than a precious, beloved object taken from place to place so that their time and education will be optimized. So I've thought that for a long time, and that's why I started rearrange kids, which was the book I wrote after I let my kid ride the subway alone, and let grow, which is the nonprofit that grew out of that, which also says that our children are smarter and safer. And they need autonomy to, to develop, but I was grateful. Like, like, Thank God manna from heaven when a psychology professor at Long Island University, named Camilo Ortiz got in touch and said, Hey, I believe in this whole idea, too. I've been reading about the let grow project, which is a homework assignment that we suggest schools give kids, it's free, all our materials are free, that says go home and do something new on your own without your parents, you have to get your parents, okay. But you can walk the dog make dinner, run an errand climb a tree, just something that you felt ready to do as a kid that you somehow hadn't done yet. And because the school is pushing the kids and it's homework, you don't want your kid to bail, the parents stay okay, even if they haven't thought of letting them do that yet, because all the other parents are doing the same thing. And I've seen so much astounding growth from the kids who do these projects, you know, kids who were afraid, in that in the Times article to talk about a seventh grader who was afraid to ride even seventh graders 12 or 13 year old, even this the simplest, you must be yay high and you felt like grasshopper high to ride this ride at Disney World. He finally convinced himself because it was a leg grow project to ride the Slinky Dog ride, I looked it up. It's for children who are like 36 inches tall, which if you're not like by the time you're poor, you're higher than that. But that was his breakthrough moment by pushing himself to do something new going out of his comfort zone. He got there. And then another girl like was afraid to she walked to church. And she felt so grown up not only walking there, but churches a kind of grown up thing. And she prayed, mom, and then she ended up getting her ears pierced with her parents permission and she started running errands for our mom. And then she had this much better relationship with her mother, because she suddenly realized like, Oh, this is what you've been doing for me all the time. You've been sitting through all these cold, you know, soccer practices, and you've been driving me and you've been getting all the stuff from CVS that I could go a couple blocks away and get you so so there's been all these breakthroughs that have been so wonderful that I've heard from the kids and from the parents parents are like waking up, like why did I think my 10 year old couldn't leave my yard? You know? So So I had all this anecdotal evidence of the electro project being super easy, fast, as I said, it's free and liberating. But when this professor Camilo came along and said, Well, I'm game to try this in a clinical setting, and do an actual study of independence as therapy for anxiety. I was like, Could you do it tomorrow? And the answer was no. I cannot believe how slow I mean, I'm a tabloid reporter by training, and not a professor, but you know, to do an actual study of just by kids requires all this paperwork and time and you have to recruit the families and he can't stop them all at the same time. But eventually, he and his graduate students, a guy named Max fast, who was doing his PhD dissertation on this treated five children who had a diagnosis of an anxiety disorder by visiting with the kids, I guess, it's a visit. It's a five therapy sessions with each kid and their parents. So Camilo, Matt, the PhD guy was keeping all the data but Camilo, who is a child therapist in real life, would meet with these kids once a week and instead of doing what he normally would do with cognitive behavioral therapy, of saying, like to one kid, he was afraid to go upstairs and downstairs in his own house without his parents. Can your child instead of saying like, Well, how about you know, this sounds like problem How about tomorrow? You walk up two steps, and then we'll come back and we'll discuss that How about the next day in our next session? We're going to go up seven steps. It wasn't that

Ned Johnson: 10:42

most people probably know but but CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy. Typically with exposure therapy justice is your describe I've been where kids make a plan to confront something that about which they're fearful and take incremental steps and bit by bit developed stress tolerance and grow their stress tolerance. I have the right, I think

Lenore Skenazy: 11:01

so you probably know way better than me. Yeah, tabloid reporter as I said, Of course, he had great success with cognitive behavioral therapy. But he decided, let me just try this other thing, which sounds like exposure, except you're not exposing the kid to the thing that they're afraid of. You're not even focusing on that. You are saying what cool new things would you like to do on your own? Well, it turned out that this kid likes trains. And this was on Long Island, and he wanted to take the Long Island Railroad and his parents, which they weren't excited about doing is their only child. They're slightly older parents. So he took the train, and he went four stops. And I guess that's, I actually haven't mapped it out. I'm assuming that's about 10 miles, and then they met him at the other end. But that was exhilarating. It was his parents trusting him to do something new, that he is excited to do on his own in the real world. To me, a simpler thing that he did was he wanted to walk home from school by himself. And his mother was so nervous about that prospect in the suburbs, you know, quiet suburbs, that she she literally had to like to take the day off of work, she couldn't stand the thought of him walking home, and she just to deal with her own nerves, she had to take the day off work. And sure enough, any came and he got a little lost. And he'd she'd actually heard from somebody, like via text or phone call that like, I see your son going, he's gone a different direction than maybe he should. But he found his way back home, and walk through the door. And that was that. And after that he's just started walking home all the time. And he did. Over the course of these five week sessions. The kids did anywhere between 10 and 20. Independence activities by themselves. Other kids took a local bus, one kid wanted to go to the park and play chess with a stranger, okay. Somebody wanted to sell bracelets at her school, just different things sort of, you know, quirky sometimes. And sometimes extremely normal. A lot of kids just wanted to walk to or from school. But what was amazing to Camilo and I think the reason the New York Times green lighted this article is that five out of five of the kids had come into this experiment, saying they felt nervous most of the time. And at the end of these five weeks, when we hadn't talked about like a year, you're nervous, you've got anxiety, we got to deal with this. Come on, you got to get on the stick, you got to start walking up and down stairs by herself or whatever. All five kids said that they were now they felt anxious, or they felt worried, I think was the word. Yeah, a little bit of the time. Yeah, they just have to say so the one kid who was afraid to walk up or downstairs by himself in his own home after five weeks of doing things on his own, that was at the end of a school year. And then along came the beginning of this school year, and it was sixth grade new school. And the school sent home a note that said, it's the beginning of the year, it's a new school, you know, you're going to get your lockers and your combination, you're going to find out where your homeroom is. And of course, you're allowed to bring your parents because this is a big day. And, and this kid, Mr. Gonna go upstairs or downstairs in his own home without his parents build his best snack at this. And he went by himself, he said he was one of the very few kids who didn't have the parents trailing him around saying, Oh, so this is your locker. And this is your home room. And so just hearing that from somebody other than me, hearing this from an actual psychology professor, was very gratifying because I'm hoping that an extra I have a text from him today that he might be starting this large randomized control trial, because oh good talking about something that is not radical and not dangerous, and doesn't cost any money. It's called allowing kids to live a sort of normal life, which is something that we've been depriving them of, in our very, very worried time when the media is so fear mongering, and people are so judgmental that all together, we felt like we couldn't take our eyes off our kids because something terrible would happen. And we would be blamed, which is, I think, why that woman walked the girl home to houses not because it is so dangerous, but what if and it could happen and all my fault. And so we don't let kids do anything.

Ned Johnson: 15:03

And you know, it's interesting from thinking about stress and anxiety. And one way that this is I've heard this described is that stress is what we experience when we're sort of at the limit or ability. It's a novel situation, it's something's intense, intense, there's a perceived threat, threat to ego or physical threat, you know, all those things, and we should experience stress in situations like that are intense, where anxiety is much more of an anticipatory thing. And so we are we're feeling this heightened vigilance, this these stress hormones running through our bodies and brains, even when we're not in the presence of the stressor. So if I can repeat back what I think you're heard of the findings of these five students who went through this, that they had been anxious all the time, meaning they're constantly worried and they're thinking about problems. There really aren't problems. To where, now that they've dealt with situations that were a little, maybe a lot intense, and realized, oh my gosh, I can handle this. Now they're worried a little bit of time, probably appropriately in the first day of school, though, whatever it happens to be. And, you know, effectively a healthy stress response is one in which your stress response reacts quickly to something that's potentially threatening, but then quickly comes back down to baseline and you're not like hyper vigilant all the time. And I think about that a lot you the this great line in your article where you said, what if the problem was simply the kids are growing up, so over protected, that they're scared of the world, not that the world is so fearful, but that we as parents, adults, and you know, walkers home, you know, are giving kids this drip feed message of? Well, it may not look to you like it's that scary, scary, because you don't see anything between our house and your house. That wasn't here an hour ago. But trust me on this, trust me on this, I'm an adult, I know better, you should be afraid, you know. And so for me, I keep coming back to this idea that by trying to protect an over protect kids, we're trying to make them feel safe. But we're actually doing is making them feel afraid, even for things that they can't see with their own eyes. Right. Yeah. Is that kind of what you're feeling? And what Camilla was, was saying,

Lenore Skenazy: 17:09

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's just pinging everything I wanted to say. Yes. So parental fears is really high. And almost nothing is considered too far fetched to worry about. Right. I mean, it really it's, you know, yeah, I'm going back to that two houses walk. Yeah. Like, what can you imagine would happen, you know, you let the kid out of the house, you can look up and down the street. There's, you know, there's no white van with a clown. And you can let the kid outside. But no, but it's, it's sort of like, yes, I want to protect my plane ride. No, I'll ride without protection, you always have to shine this thing. Whenever you're, you're getting a plane ticket, you're always supposed to be imagining the very worst case scenario. And somehow, if you're not, that's considered crazy, not the idea that something really terrible can happen in a 32nd walk home, but that you think everything's gonna be fine, we penalize we socially penalize the parents who think kids are going to be okay. That's why I'm always writing about parents who get yelled at for letting a kid be alone at the mall, or alone at the playground.

Ned Johnson: 18:15

I have this. I can remember when my kids were little guys, you know, they were toddlers and go to the store. And you turn around for a moment, and they're not there. And what that goes through your head, it's horrible. They've been abducted, they are sold, sold, you know, into whatever, you know, on some other side of the world, right? And of course, that's what fear does. And what of course, we need to do is talk back again. So you're allowed to have this crazy thoughts how you what you do with them is significant, right? You think about this idea that when our kids are infants, they can't protect themselves, obviously. But where do we draw that line? When when he started handing the tons so it's changes from being our job, to keep them safe to our job to teach our kids how to keep themselves safe, right? And you're the what you started with that two block block, it seems to me that rare is the toddler who the first chance he gets is going to run run around the block and jump into some random car with a guy who has you know, because as a friend of mine said, Who is whose son was, I don't know, it's 10th grade in high school. And he was she he was going out to some party and she's going to be careful, be careful, be careful. And he stopped and looked her dead in the eye. And he said, Mom, you know what? I too don't want to die. And we act as though they have no instincts themselves.

Lenore Skenazy: 19:39

I mean, I think we should have buttons. Yeah, I do don't want to die. You know, chill, Mom, I too, don't want it that.

Ned Johnson: 19:48

And one of the things that strikes me is that if I'm constantly falling into protective or over protective mode, I'm really not teaching my child to pay attention to the environment around him because someone other than him, is responsible for his own safety. Right. And of course, as soon as I mean, it's at least as soon as my kids leave the front door. I'm not like what am I going to drop from the ceiling all Tom Cruise and excrete them from a situation? I mean, well,

Lenore Skenazy: 20:13

that's what we're to believe if you, you know, with phone, but I just got, I mean, I really I can read you this press release today that I can't even remember what company sent me that said that parents believe it's imperative for children to have phones by 13 and the number one and preferably earlier and the number one reason is to protect them. And it is that sort of idea that somehow by being electronically with them, you are physically with them and you can karate chop anybody who's coming at them.

Ned Johnson: 20:41

Here's a quick note for although we won't go deep down there, but But um, if parents think they're keeping their kids safe because they have a phone but also if they're telling their kids you You will be saved, so long as you have a phone. It's not a cure all for everything. And I'll say really quickly when I talk with my students about this, whose parents are tracking them with live 360. And they say, Well, what they'll do is I'll go over to Linares house, you know, and they'll say, I'll be there the whole time I leave my phone to your house. And then we all go to a party. And so then, if I'm being tracked all the time, and yeah, there's

Lenore Skenazy: 21:11

we can talk phones and other time and sort of distant relationships. But I was writing down notes as we were talking, and I want to go back to the idea of anxiety being a sort of free fear that something bad will happen, that you won't be able to handle it and that you will be hurt probably permanently, that's sort of the whole idea of anxiety is the way I've heard it explained. And so to counter it, you really do have to be thrown for a loop and realize that you're okay. And so one of the other kids who did this, this independence therapy with Camilo was a girl she was 10. And she was afraid to sleep in her own bed had never slept the whole night through in her own bed. But rather than once again, concentrating on that I hear you can't stay in your bed, what's the matter with you, Camilo asked what she wanted to do. And I don't remember a bunch of things that she did not even sure he told me. But one thing that she definitely did was she took the local bus, and her phone didn't work. So she's looking at it, and it's not telling her where to get off, or the map function isn't working. And so she had to turn to the lady next to her a stranger. And, you know, the lady's looking at it, too. It's like, well, here, let me get on my phone, she gets out her phone, and they look at it together. Oh, you know, you gotta get off, you know, and three stops or whatever, thank you, and the girl does. And that was exhilarating. I mean, it was, it was a real breakthrough. It's, it's as minor as minor can be, she could have gotten off at any stop. And you know, get flagged on the policeman, Puppy, whatever there was, there was no danger. But simply coming out of her comfort zone, looking up from her own phone, talking to a real human, and solving a problem together was this new room, that she could go into a room with that she could rule or I sometimes think of it like a like a superpower. You mean, if I have a problem, I have the power to fix it, and get out of it and be okay and be master of my own fate. And that changed her she didn't even notice this. But she slept in her own bed for the next three nights. I don't know what happened after that. But it gave Camilo who has spent his whole life, you know, being a professor of psychology, pause to think maybe there's a even a new branch of psychology. I mean, you know, that's a little grandiose that we haven't talked about, or we haven't even looked at, which is instead of framing, you know, a loss and problem, we look at kids innate abilities, and we let them flourish, we let them function, and then the kid sort of becomes fall again. And this is not to say that a there are no dangerous neighborhoods where you shouldn't be walking around. Of course, you're right. I'm sure there's genetic factors in anxiety and depression and everything else that you know, everything from our eye color to our souls. You know it, we're all right. And so it's not like this is going to solve everyone's every problem. But if it turns out, which is true that as children's independence has been going down, over the decades, like literally five or six decades, their anxiety has been going up. It's more than just correlation. There's some causation there. And so it'd be seemed, seem to be obvious that if you started giving them more independence, then their mood, their their self sufficiency, resourcefulness, and optimism would start going up. And so that's why, you know, that's why the Times wrote the piece allowed us to write the piece because it seems like in this era, when we're all so worried about our kids, including me, as a mom, you know, who can't not be worried about their kids, that here's something that you could try, that doesn't have a downside. That seems to work for a lot of kids anecdotally, and now scientifically, and so try it. And so that's why I'm, I'm hoping that by being on your podcast, schools will consider doing the let grow project, which is giving kids the homework to go home and do something new on their own, which we now have expanded into something we call the electro experience, which is a year long curriculum. Once again, everything's free, that has kids doing things for themselves for the community for their families, and and, you know, sort of firing out all these pistons when it comes to responsibility and autonomy.

Ned Johnson: 25:21

I love it. I mean, one of the things that we know this is a researcher named Sonya Lupin, whose work we love, talks about kind of what causes stress for people and at the sort of the base of the paradigm, a low sense of control or feeling no control is the most stressful thing that people can experience. And so anytime folks have an experience of feeling a sense of control, in a situation this kind of intense. This is basically the model for the neurological UNDRIP Any, when kids feel a sense of control in a situation that's intense this frame is the neurological underpinning of resilience with cognitive behavioral therapy, what kids are doing, or anyone is doing is with exposure period therapy, dealing with something that's kind of intense. And you know, and then recovering from it. And to your point before, it wires, the brains to say that this is something that I can handle. There's also a bunch of reframing of our thinking that we're reframing this not to being afraid, but I'm being brave, right, because you're in the year don't experience bravery unless you feel afraid, right. And so Bill and I are working on a big article about the importance of a sense of control. And it turns out that the single best the biggest outcome of cognitive behavioral therapy is that it increases kids sense of control. The what I love about the experience of doing the experiment that Camilla has done that you guys have written about is that classically with CBT, they make they make a stress ladder. And they start from things that are low stress, and things that are high stress. And we try to inoculate kids and go kind of move up the ladder up the ladder up the ladder. And for things that are hard, oftentimes, they're using various types of incentives. Like I know, this is really scary for you to learn, or you don't like to talk to kids that are new. But you know what, if we do this, we'll make a plan for this. And we'll work on some kind of incentive for you. And so generally, most people, including me, and Bill aren't, aren't such a big fan of rewards, right? When we're trying to coach someone to do something that they know is important. But they also know this and hard, we sort of sweeten the pot a little bit, not in the course of way, but a way for them to be excited for that thing kind of get. What I love about what you all have done here is rather than starting with something that is hard, and trying to create an incentive for them to do it, we've started with something that they're already incentivized to do, that has built into it some kind of obstacle. So they're not trying to talk themselves into doing the thing to get this external reward of rent, they started with, here's the thing that I want, and this is the obstacle that I'm willing to surmount or the challenge I'm willing to take on, because this is the thing that matters to me. So we've started with the motivation at the core of it, that then pushes them to push themselves through things that are hard. And they build that stress tolerance and that resilience, we give them the free range to do the thing that they say matters to them.

Lenore Skenazy: 28:06

That is actually blowing my mind, because you're exactly right. It is the incentive is there. It's not this external reward. Like if you do this, which I know is hard, I'll give you a piece of candy or $20, or whatever, it's if you do this, which is something you want to do, ride the bus, you know, take a walk home from school, the reward is inherent. And in fact, most of life, the reward is inherent. And so we're really just rewiring kids by giving them what they always had, which is kids have a drive for exploration, for play for fun for autonomy. And so we're just took the foot off the brake, right. And then as they do that, they'll have some problem, you know, they'll get a little lost, or they'll have either FOMO at work, or they'll have to talk to a stranger or a dog will bark. And so there'll be dealing with something. And so all the things that we wanted them to deal with through cognitive behavioral therapy, which is, you know, dealing with a problem being a little brave and doing it for reward are inherent in regular life. That's it. Two things

Ned Johnson: 29:10

popped to mind for me. I mean, I'm not a developmental pediatrician. But as I understand it, children are wired. I mean, certainly there are people with different temperaments. But children are wired as babies, they're wired to be afraid of two things, falling, and loud noises, everything else they have to learn books writing, because you have you know, little people, like let me stick my finger in the outlet. They're not wired to be afraid of that everything else we have to teach them. Right. And so then there's this interesting question of how do we as parents do find this balance where we're teaching them to be, you know, protected, but but not so constantly drip feeding them a message of be afraid, be afraid that we completely crushed the natural curiosity that all children have.

Lenore Skenazy: 29:52

So the other thing is, it's not always even these oral warnings like oh, if you talk to a stranger, terrible things will happen. Or if you go outside, you'll be snatched. What we've been doing for the most part is simply supervising our children in all these situations that a generation or two ago they would have been on their own right, whether it's waiting, waiting at the bus stop or organizing a game of baseball or going to the store. And I don't want to say it's undermining kids because I know that parents are doing this because they've been drenched in worst case scenarios and terrible stories and then they've been reiterated on law and order and you know, Liam Neeson movies to the point where nothing seems safe enough. But I was talking to a woman who actually end up she was a principal at a school that ended up doing an electro project and she started doing with her own kids and she's she's grateful, but she in Long Island is like our sweet spot. because it's suburban, and there have been a lot of schools that have been willing to let us come in and film them and watch them. So this was a suburban, Long Island School principal. And she said that when she went to CVS and was looking for the ibuprofen or whatever, and one of her kids wandered over to the greeting card aisle, she was insane. What are you doing? Why aren't you here? Where are you, you could have been snatched. And so it's, it's become, you know, then a kid feels bad. They don't want to make the parent feel, you know, terrible. They don't want to do something wrong, and they don't want to be snatched. And so you really have to have the parents have the experience of letting go right for them to be able to do it again. So when I started, let grow it was 10 years after I'd written free rage kids. And Jonathan Hite who wrote the coddling of the American mind. And Dan Schucman, who's the longtime chairman of a group called Fire, which fights for free speech on campus came to me and said, We're worried about kids being fragile on campus. They're, they're scared of new ideas, new experiences, the mental health services are overwhelmed. We realized that like trying to change things only on campus is a little late. You know, it's sort of a late stage solution. What if we start younger and build up kids with more resilience, more curiosity, more resourcefulness? And I said, Okay, great. But listen, what we have to do this time around is we have to focus on behavior. Because simply getting people on board with these ideas is easy. I've given speeches all over America and the world for 10 years talking about Don't worry, remember our childhoods, and we love staying out till the street lights came on. And we all had great times, or sometimes we didn't. But we learned from that too. Everybody nods. And then they would all go home. And not right? change anything, right? But to be the person who lets go is hard for a couple of reasons. One is, what if something bad happens to is there's no other kids outside three is what if somebody thinks that my kitchen be outside. And so schools are the optimal place to give this assignment, go home and do something new on your own without your parents to the students, because suddenly all the students are doing things, some are rollerblading, and some are roller skating, and some are, you know, walking to the store and some are playing basketball. And so it's renormalizing. Letting go. And then it's only by letting your kid go and having them have the best day you know, they went and played basketball with their friend, they're 1011 years old, they've never been allowed to do this just by themselves at the park, it was so great. And they went you know, maybe they'll never even tell their parents that they wouldn't add a candy bar afterwards, or something subversive like that. Or they helped their mom because they got the ingredients for dinner. And they felt like I'm you know, I am contributing. I'm not just taking I'm not just precious, I'm valuable. And so when the parent has the kid come back from that, you know, that walk or that errand, or that play date that they walked themselves home from the parent changes, because they're so proud. And only actually having that happen in real life can rewire their brains, because until then, it's always theoretical, and in theory, anything terrible could happen. But reality is look at my kid. It's like the end of the music man. There's my Timmy, you know, playing the triangle. You just you can't go back to being a terrified person, just like you can't go back to wanting your kid to crawl after they started to walk. You don't say like, Well, that was a nice experiment, you know, an alibi Right? Right. For arms on the ground? That's safety first, right? That's all I'll reach down anything you can reach?

Ned Johnson: 34:23

Yeah, no, I love that. Because I've made a note of kids versus parents, right. And so when we as parents hold kids back or, you know, bubble, wrap them everywhere. It's one telling the kids that the world is scary. And this is the only way for you to be safe. But it also reinforces us if our kid is safe, because of the thing that we've done, right? We think that the kid can only be saved because of what we've done, like rewire that, to sort of repeat back to what you just said, it's when my kid does something that I think is risky. And it turns out just fine. That that tells the of my stress reactive amygdala actually, look, look, you know, we have a counter example. We've debunked that, that myth that you have. I mean, that really isn't that you know, so it's interesting that this is kind of like a group exercise for exposure therapy for both the child and for the parent.

Lenore Skenazy: 35:12

Right. You know, we have videotapes of parents talking about what changed in them and they seem like they woke up from a coma. You know, it's like, Why did I think she couldn't ride her bike with her friends? Why did I think we always had to watch them even in the backyard. There's something lofty about it. I mean, it's like this weight is off of you. It's not all on top of you. The world is not down on your kid, it's you don't have to watch them every single second and then to watch them sort of, you know, blossoming towards the Sun feels it's just great for both generations and and we've checked back with families after they've done these things and They barely remember why they were so worried before. I mean, one guy said that, you know, he let his kids walk to the store a 12 and 10 year old, go and get some juice like three blocks away at a store. And after that, he started letting his son the 12 year old walk home from school, and then he started letting him go play ball on the way home from school and not come immediately home. And when he went back home when the dad went back home to New Mexico, where he'd grown up with his twin brother riding bareback horses in the gullies of the desert, you know, as free range literally and free rate rain free and free range, as could be. Yeah. And his grown nephew is a pastor there. And he said, this weird thing happened to me recently. I'm like, letting my kids do all this stuff I never let them do before. And the pastor I thought was very wise. He said, Well, you know what, it's interesting, you always had faith in God. But now you have faith in your kids. And what it requires what faith requires is a leap. It's called a leap of faith, the left girl project, the electoral experience, independence, activities, therapy, whatever you want to call it, that push to let go, is allowing you to take that leap. In fact, it's forcing you to take that leap, because it's only after taking the leap of faith that you get faith. And so I love it. What can I say everybody listening should try to get their schools to do the electro experience. I have

Ned Johnson: 37:10

two other quick thoughts one year that would keep circling back to your point about doing this in school, there's probably a safety, you know, herd safety, right? If everyone's kid is doing this, and also a little bit social pressure. I keep thinking about this, you know, the worst mother in America that's

Lenore Skenazy: 37:26

being overweight on one shoulders? Well, yeah,

Ned Johnson: 37:29

what I'm imagining is we can all and I think we can all feel very judged as parents like what we're by by the press while we're doing and I'm confident, I don't know. But I'm confident that that pressure is even more so for moms who tend to bear you know that many things. And so if I'm a mom watching you let your kid you know, Raintree and go on the subway, if I start thinking all that fear based thoughts, thinking, What kind of mother would do that? And then start thinking, if I were the kind of mother who let my kid go, I would, I must not love my kid, right? Because any monitoring loves her well enough, wouldn't let her be faced that kind of threat, right? Of course, I think one can credibly make an argument that you can love your kid enormously and have the courage and the faith in them. They too don't want to die, right. And they want to this, you know, your kid wants to explore the world and feel feel that she can do this. And it's not mom loves me, but this is my path to chart. But I think the doing this, you know doing this, it is groups, rather just individuals trying to make this leap of faith. I think there's some real safety there. Because if you watch someone else's kid, go on the subway, and though she worked out fine that it is for those of us who might be the second to take that leap, there's got to be some real power to that of watching other people successfully navigate this.

Lenore Skenazy: 38:48

Yes, I also think it removes the idea that like, You're a terrible mom, I guess that's one of the things you were saying. But of course, riding the subway only made sense, because that's we live in New York City, we're on all the time, we don't have car, you know, so it was sort of like a kid walking to school in the suburbs, or kid, you know, riding a donkey, you know, and, and some other part of the world. So there's, there's no need to do something dramatic. And if you're thinking about like, am I a bad mom, because you know, I don't care, I let my kid do something independently, you can also think, you know, there's something great about trusting my kids and helping them to avoid this horrible mental health crisis. Not that, you know, not that this is a panacea, and it will always work. But, you know, there's, there's the, there's the dangers that we focus on, which are basically kidnapping, and danger that is gigantic and pervasive, which is this problem with, you know, youth mental health and optimism and hope and self confidence. And so trying to address that make sense for a loving parent.

Ned Johnson: 39:57

And one of the quick thought on that when we think about anxiety, and then the way parents often get looped into making accommodations is the work of Eli Liebowitz that that so often it's not our reactions and kind of overreactions aren't just about an existential threat. You know, someone's got a gun, and my kid is in harm's way. But we have the way that we have as parents and I think a whole society has fallen into a habit of trying to protect kids from any discomfort of anything. And I think that's really the problem, because we're telling them that basically, you can't handle that. We lean on a lot, a guy named Steve Mayer, who do the work on learned helplessness. Oh, well, you know, he did this work with rodents and dogs and this kind of thing. And then they would have them in a cage and they'd been shocked repeatedly and then they could open the cage and they would just sit there and endure it. He had this paradigm study called learned helplessness it's 50 what we got right and what we got wrong, and he said what we got wrong was this, it was not that the animals learned to be helpless. It's that they failed to ever learn a sense of control. Wow, wow, that's

Lenore Skenazy: 41:00

so interesting. It's not like, I could have done this, but now I won't bother. It's like, can I even do this?

Ned Johnson: 41:05

Right. And what he found was when they put in this case, they have rodents that had dogs, when they put them in a situation where they experience an adverse experience with something stressful, something unpleasant, nothing life threatening, but you know, it was stressful to them. And the animals could do something, to affect the outcome to stop the shock, whatever it happened to be, they would get this activation the prefrontal cortex, and would dampen down the stress response. And then this is important, it was trans situational. So the experience of coping with one difficult situation allowed them to cope in other situations. So Bill and I were talking with Dr. Meyer, some months ago about this. And the classic experiment with rats, and that kind of a model electric shock. Bill said, should we be doing this with teenagers, like, you know, like, expose him to mild electric shocks. And Dr. Mayer leaned back and said, it's a really interesting question. And so again, with this project that you have kids doing, they're not purposely putting themselves just to get shocked, but they're likely willing to endure discomfort, uncertainty, you know, stress in order to get to the thing that they want. And it because they are doing something to get there, and they are doing something coping rather than mom or dad come in to save the day. They're the ones who are experienced in that sense of control. And they find the courage and the curiosity and the bravery that comes with comes with it. Because it doesn't even have to be 10 experiences. We did with Camilla, a few of them seemingly. And he said, it appears that one experience of handling well are coping at least with an adverse experience in adolescents, at least with rodents, seems to persist through their entire lives. So we do this in middle and high school where we're we're on a long way of solving that mental health challenge that we see so frequently in colleges. Wow.

Lenore Skenazy: 42:52

First of all, when this comes out, I'm just going to have the this end part transcribed for me, because what you've just described is exactly what Camilla was saying, which is that the experience of coping with something is what changes kids. And of course, what he said is that rather than doing, you know, you're afraid to sleep in your bed, I'm gonna make you sleep in your bed. He said, You want to walk to school, walk to school, you want to go to the fear, go to the fear. And so what he saw from those experiences was that it did translate to the thing that they were afraid of. So basically, if we give kids back the autonomy that we've strangely denied them out of fear, they will learn as they always have to cope with life and be ready for adulthood. So give them that opportunity to grow.

Ned Johnson: 43:40

There's a lovin I will run in just a moment, there's a love of really adorable movie called Miss Peregrine school for gifted children. And at the end of it, there's one protagonist turns to the other. And He's beside himself. And he said, I wasn't able to keep you safe. And she turns to him, and she said, You did something so much more powerful. You helped us feel brave, right? And when I sit there, and I was thinking about, you know, the land of the free, and the home of the brave, well, we need to give kids freedom and tolerate our own distress, even though that's hard for us as grown ups, so that they can grow into the next generation of the brave.

Lenore Skenazy: 44:22

Right? I am willing myself not to say anything else, because that's it. Full stop. Yes, listen to Ned. And like I said, I'm just going to transcribe it and put it on a pillow, and wear it on a t shirt and preach it because that's all we're talking about. Give them a chance to be brave, and they will rise to the occasion and go from there.

Ned Johnson: 44:43

And so grateful for the work that you do with Mike Rowe. Because it's one thing, no challenge for any of us as individual parents, but the giving people free the tools to do this at scale. Because this isn't possibly the problem of this one family or that one kid or it's it's the as you know, it's every where you lecture. So when I was going crazy, I am very grateful for the good work that the excuse me for the great work. You do and help. It's It's amazing. Thank you for joining me. I'm Matt Johnson. And this is the self driving Job Podcast. Hey folks, Ned here. Over the past 25 years, I've talked with 1000s of parents of high school students, parents who care deeply about their kids education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed. But these parents need to work with a team they trust will just pile on more pressure to achieve better grades and scores. This is why I started prep matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation, tutoring in college admissions planning This podcast and my books reflect our company's philosophy and approach to helping students. If you have a high school student and we'd like to talk about putting in place a plan, please get in touch with us, visit our website at prep matters.com or call 301-951-0350. That's 301-951-0350 Thanks