The Self-Driven Child
Helping parents raise kids with healthy motivation and resilience in facing life's challenges. Oh, and having more fun while doing it!
The Self-Driven Child
How To Talk With Kids About Anything with Dr. Robyn Silverman
In this insightful interview, I am joined by my friend and co-author Dr. William Stixrud to speak with child development specialist Dr. Robyn Silverman. We discuss her new book, How to Talk with Kids About Anything. We dive into tough but critical conversations like handling big emotions, building self-esteem, making mistakes, and forming friendships. Dr. Silverman shares valuable advice and scripts for connecting with kids through their triumphs and tribulations. Her vast experience and research is distilled into an accessible guide for parents and caregivers. Don’t miss her incredible insights on empowering kids to handle life’s ups and downs. This conversation overflows with compassion and tools to foster healthy communication.
Dr. Robyn Silverman is a renowned child and teen development specialist seen frequently on national television programs. Her podcast “How to Talk with Kids About Anything” offers incredible wisdom from leading experts. Dr. William Stixrud and I have been guests sharing approaches from The Self-Driven Child. Now we have the tables turned and get to ask Dr. Silverman about her must-read new book.
Timeline Summary:
[02:26] – Starting the podcast after being bullied as a child when adults didn’t know what to say.
[05:00] – The importance of giving kids words and understanding to handle life’s challenges.
[06:28] – Emotional inhibition and invalidation lead kids to become more dysregulated over time.
[08:33] – Discussing the benefits and catharsis of expressing sadness.
[09:47] – Anger often masks hurt; getting underneath to find the real issue.
[12:36] – Assuring kids of unconditional love, regardless of mistakes.
[17:11] – Identifying when sadness becomes persistent depression.
[19:39] – Allowing kids to go through the “tunnel” of hard feelings is better than taking those feelings away.
[22:58] – Fostering self-esteem by celebrating kids’ unique strengths.
[26:51] – Toxic perfectionism and low self-esteem start early and plague high achievers.
[30:15] – The power of observing vs praise in building kids’ self-esteem.
[33:08] – Guiding kids to recognize and leave toxic friendships.
[35:58] – Sharing stories of famous failures to reframe mistakes as learning.
[40:04] – Modeling imperfection and apologies fosters empathy in kids.
[44:40] – Long parenting relationships mean we keep learning as kids grow.
Connect with Dr. Robyn Silverman:
· Robyn’s Podcast: How to Talk to Kids About Anything
· Robyn’s Book: How to Talk with Kids About Anything
Links & Resources:
· Book: Raising a Kid Who Can
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode. If you found it insightful, I urge you to share it with others. And hey, if you enjoyed it, please don't forget to rate, follow, and review our podcast. Your support means the world to us. Until the next time, remember to love your kids and stay curious!
If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com
If we can help them see their strengths, and then give them an opportunity to show them, then allow them to hear that we value them for those strengths they've contributed. And they've been valued for those strengths in their unique way. They take it on as their personal I am, I am organized, I am a noticer. I am the founder of wall loss thigs. That is when they step up, and they say pick me for this job, I am good at this job. I am valued for this job. I feel good about who I am, because this is a way I can contribute to this world. That makes a huge difference. Switching the language switching what they see. I am bossy No, I am assertive. I am ugly. Where did you get that? From? whose voices that who's told you that? Oh, well, there's this boy in fifth grade who told me I had a big nose? Well, let's call it what it is. Then when you say I'm ugly in your head. That's Joel who said that? Why does Joe get to say anything?
Ned Johnson:Welcome to the self driven Job Podcast. I'm your host, Ned Johnson and co author with Dr. Williams pictured of the books, the self driven child the science and sense of giving your kids more control over their lives. And what do you say how to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance, and a happy home. We all know how important it is to talk to our kids for many reasons for a sense of connection, which is the strongest protective factor we can give our kids to help soothe hard feelings and hard problems. And just because we like to talk with them. Of course, it isn't always easy a light and breezy conversation can abruptly and unexpectedly take a hard turn into territory that feels fraught with landmines which is why I'm thrilled today to talk with Dr. Robin Silverman child and teen development specialist and regular seen on national television programs such as the today's show Nightline, and Good Morning America. Really podcaster and author of the brand new and eagerly anticipated book, How to talk with kids about anything. Welcome, Robin.
Dr Robyn Silverman:I'm so excited to be here with both of you and be on the opposite side. I mean, I'm used to interviewing you. So this is exciting.
Ned Johnson:As Robin knows, we're thrilled today to have my friend and partner and scribe Dr. Williams pictured join us in this conversation. Hey, Bill. Hey, buddy.
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:It's a pleasure to be with the three of you. So looking
Ned Johnson:forward to this. And as Robin noted, we've had the opportunity to be guests on her wonderful podcast how to talk with kids about anything more than once. So what is it your sixth year?
Dr Robyn Silverman:I started in 2017. So yeah, it's amazing to me how much time has passed by I, I mean, like an entire six year old could have been born and like lived and now was in first grade since I started. So that that is amazing. To me.
Ned Johnson:That is amazing.
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:Are you up to 3 million downloads now?
Dr Robyn Silverman:It's all I'm on my way to 3 million right now. That is actually correct. Yes, I am. That's a that's a that's a bananas. Number two, thank you for bringing that up. It's, I mean, if you know what it says is that people are listening to these amazing guests that I have, and realizing that there's a lot to this child development pie. And that each person who comes on my show, or payer that comes on my show is providing such a deep slice of the Child Development communication pie. I'm excited that it's my life. I'm just really thrilled to bring this to everyone.
Ned Johnson:And we're thrilled to have it. Tell us a little bit for folks who don't know your work that well yet, tell us a little bit how you got to this and the obvious question about why it is so important to talk with our kids. And here's why it's hard to
Dr Robyn Silverman:it's interesting, because I feel like so much of what we do is based on how we grew up, and maybe what was missing or what worked in many cases. In my case, and I put this in the book that I was bullied and in fifth grade. And when I was bullied, I found that my mother didn't know what to say my teachers didn't know what to say. And I felt very alone, even though they wanted to help. They made a lot of mistakes. And you know, I might just remember my mom handing me tissues and me crying and crying and crying every day after school, being in school and the teacher not knowing what to do or say and actually sent me out of the room to the library so she could talk to the class alone. I still remember this because it's such it's so horrible that I was the one who was isolated out of that. And then she was talking to the rest of the class to have me come in and have all those eyes on me and right Oh, I see your cringing face. You know what I'm talking about? Right? Yeah, yeah, it's it was it's still memorable to me. Like I can still see myself walking into that room with all those eyes on me. And then it's like, what do you want to say? I'm like, I don't want to say anything right now. I just want to crawl under the desk. So
Ned Johnson:Elementary School walk of shame. Oh,
Dr Robyn Silverman:really, it really is. And so given that that was my experience, I think, hey, you know, our careers can be born out of strife. I feel like because people didn't know those words, I wanted to be the person who provided the words and the understanding for the adults, the key adults in the lives of children so that people weren't in the same situation that I was. And that happened often with other tough conversations as I went through my life, because our parents in many cases just weren't like thinking that that was something that they were supposed to do in many cases, you know, if you had a parent that sat you down and, and talk to you about all these things, like you, you were an anomaly. It's only now that we're realizing all the research that's come out that said, you should talk to your kids about these tough topics. And actually, you're not implanting something in that kid's head that's going to make them act out, you're actually giving them the tools so that they refrain from risky behavior, you're giving them information so they can make smart choices. So all of these things put together has been the impetus for me to create the podcast, and the podcast, all those interviews, hundreds of interviews, wound up helping me create a book that is deep and insightful and provides perspective from so many different experts, not just my words,
Ned Johnson:and scripts, I love that the folks refer to you as a script Titian, which I think is which I think is great, because you know, in many ways parents are well are frequently going to be the kind of emotional first responders and without any training, you can sometimes do as much harm as good.
Dr Robyn Silverman:And that's really the truth. Unfortunately, we have a lot of preconceived notions, we have some knee jerk reactions, as much as we think, Oh, I don't want to sound like my mother or my father. There they are. When you're talking like Wait, who said that? So we do need to train ourselves. And people will say to me, Well, you know, we don't want to sound stilted. You know, we don't want to be like coming in with a script. No, no, you don't want to be like coming in and reading off of my book, by insert
Ned Johnson:name here, believe child's insert and
Dr Robyn Silverman:insert word you want you want to read the book, and, and come in with an idea of the kinds of things that would be helpful. Or if your child says to you, but how does the baby get in there, you can actually say, You know what, I just, I really want to hear this question. And I want to take it in. And I want to provide you with a thorough answer. But I just need like, five minutes to get my thoughts together, and then run into her closet and get my book and like, read up, like, that's totally fine, you know? So So then go there, and then you can have the conversation. But remembering that a conversation is two ways, like you're not giving this like Shakespearean monologue you are you're having a conversation which necessitates questions and listening and answers and taking it in and, and kind of a dropped agenda, you know, that, like, I'm gonna instill this value into you. You want to hear what your child says and respond to what they're saying and not over talk. There's a lot of over talking when it comes to parents.
Ned Johnson:Yeah, Bill, you want to jump in with chapter one a little bit. We were thrilled that you started your book with how to talk with kids about anger, sadness, and other big emotions.
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:Yeah, yeah. I think it's a beautiful place to start. Because it that's certainly one of the hardest things, and we look at the rates of depression and anxiety and kids. And when you're stressed you as you point out in your book, yes, stress manifests as sadness, or anger or anxiety, and avoidance, but also say, and so you talked about sadness in the beautiful way. And I love your discussion of anger.
Dr Robyn Silverman:Yeah, you know, when it comes to anger, and it's, it's often a masking for hurt. And people will say, Why are you so mad at me? And it's actually like the wrong question. We want to be able to get underneath what that anger is, so that children are able to realize that you see them, you're not responding to this outward. The kind of ugly words they're saying, but you're realizing, hey, there's something really bothering you here. And let me get underneath that because when we see the hurt that's underneath the misunderstanding, that's when that child can open up. We often will punish the child for being angry. Like that's some kind of crazy offense, you know, but what we want is to help that child see it's Oh, okay to be angry, that we are here to listen to understand, to be a springboard for discussion. And we can't have you lashing out and bonking your sibling on the head. But those angry feelings are an indicator for that hurt or being unheard or unseen. That's valid, here are some things you can do to get that out, and I'm here for all of it, whether it's to talk or just sit next to you or hold you, or being willing to listen listening ear,
Ned Johnson:when you say that, why are you angry? What occurs to me with some of the things like that, that? If we're completely honest with ourselves, it's really an accusation with a question mark popped on the end, right? You are, you have this wonderful line in the first chapter that emotional inhibition and invalidation contribute to kids becoming more dysregulated, distressed, depressed, anxious and more negative over time. And I think we I think it's so easy to think if we can sort of get rid of the symptom, right? Get make the make the anger go fairer. And then the kid isn't feeling those feelings anymore. And of course, you better than anyone know that that's not sadly not true,
Dr Robyn Silverman:right? When we tell a child that they shouldn't feel the way that they're feeling, we're really invalidating them. And we're even more so. And this is really, as my mother would say, cutting off our nose to spite our face, that when we do that, we are making it so we cannot connect with our child, there was something that Susan David said, who you know, does all her emotional agility, or she's like, No, you can't have a career that's like meaningful and live in this world. Without the negative feelings, I'm going to extend that to say you can't have a connected, real authentic relationship with your child. If you aren't going to invite negative feelings into that relationship. You need positive feelings, negative feelings, you need to be open to all of that. And when we are, then we can connect on a very real heart to heart level where our child knows, I'm here for the good. I'm here for the ugly. And I'm going to be here for the long haul.
Ned Johnson:I love that. I love that Biblia story you told one of the books about when your kids were little asking, you know, kind of what could they do to sort of lose your love and you ran through this? They ran through all these questions. If I if I did this, would you stop loving me?
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:Yeah. What could you do? What does it make you make me love you less than 100%? And enjoy it? What if you did this? This is fun, right rather than dead? And I often ask kids, what do you know how to do is prevent or kind of handle feeling really anxious or unhappy. And kids almost know nothing other than distraction. You have these I love your sections and the first chapter in the suiting for answering the break. And distracting certainly you can help. But you mentioned other techniques for calming and we write about how important is to have a sense of control. And kind of knowing what you can do to soothe your brain to see increases just as
Dr Robyn Silverman:well. I know that you know and love Janine Halloran as much as I do. And I certainly quote her in the book as well. But it extends to this as in coordination with everything else that I have in the book where some kids really can calm their brain by doing the opposite by being active by being really physical, you know, those kids who, you know, they, they need to, like run around the block, they need to do push ups, they need to like, you see those kids bonking their, their sister on the head. Those are those are probably really physical kids that need to get that anger out in a different way. You're not going to say to that person like, oh, go read a book that's not going to be very helpful to them. And then they're going to just act out take some breaths, yeah, like take some, oh my gosh, take some breaths, you're gonna get pumped up my head. So that's the time where you were like, I want you to take these Nerf balls and throw them at the wall. Okay, you can go run around the block. You can do push ups, you can do sit ups, you can ride the bike. You've got kids who if they Yes, distraction can work. But you also have kids who need to be like swaddled up, my daughter loves like tons of blankets. She loves to be in the shower, you know, with hot water on her. She's very sensory in that way where these kinds of feeling that pressure or feeling heat is really helpful for her to get calm. Some people need to be very vocal, and I get in that shower and I'm yelling, right, but nobody else is around. No, and I'm doing it in the privacy of my own bathroom. Oh my god. You know, you can get that out without yelling at somebody. My mom used to yell at the dishes like, oh, no, you I still remember her doing that. Yeah. Where does it come from? Mom? Why would I do this? i Where did I get that from? So we need to let our kids do these things. There's also something called the matte box, where you know, you've got all these bags, right? Like, you know, Lynn, Kenny and Wendy young, they talk a lot about this mad box when I interviewed them on kids and tantrums. When you can have a box of things or a space, where the kids have already decided what's good for them, their favorite book, their favorite blanket, their favorite stuffed animal, whatever it is, for them something to listen to great music that they love, which may be rock, or it might be classical, like, it depends on the kid, that box, it's already there. They can go to when it's ramping up, not when they've gone over the edge. And now you've got to go, you know what, we should create a matte box for you. That's not the time to do that. Let's do this. When everybody's calm and your kids coloring, Hey, I see that you're coloring and it's really seems very calming for you. Maybe we should put that in your matte box. So they know exactly what to do at the time when they feel themselves getting frustrated. When you know, you can you've already taught them Where do you feel it, you feel it in your heart, you feel it in your hands, you feeling in your face, you're getting hot, what happens? Or what happened when you got angry that time? Once they can identify those signs, they can then go and do the thing that helps them the most, so that they don't wind up as Lynn said, Dr. Lam said, getting over anger mountain, they're getting it before, right? They're getting it as they're ramping up. And you know what? So are you like, you know that this happens often in tandem? Like, we don't just watch our kid getting angry, we're getting ramped up to and when you say it takes two to tango, like, whoo, we can either make this really go well, or, you know, we can contribute to the big explosion at the top of the mountain realize it's about okay, though.
Ned Johnson:I'd love to talk a little bit about the benefits you you talk about the benefits of sadness, and why particularly in light of kids being were so concerned, we see so much evidence of mental health problems of anxiety and depression. Can you before we talked about to identify when it's depression and what we should do? Can you actually talk about the benefits of sadness that was really informative for me anyway?
Dr Robyn Silverman:Well, sadness, people think, Oh, we've got to get rid of this as soon as possible. But when we talk to grief experts, and I talked to a man named Joe Primo, who is works with kids whose parents have died, whose siblings have died, it does a lot on grief, which is really amazing work. But when we talk about grief, or we talk about sadness, when we get sadness out, it makes us feel better when we hold it in, it makes us feel worse. So there there's a benefit of even just like a cathartic benefit of getting it out. And it also sends a sign to you that something's not right here. And sometimes you'll be like, Why am I sad right now. And then you realize, like, Oh, I'm missing my mother, I'm missing my dog, I'm missing something. And then you can do something about it. It also sends assigned to other people who really care about you. And that creates connection. So it says, Hey, I'm noticing that you're sad. Right now, I'm noticing that your eyes are welling up with tears, or I'm noticing that your your shoulders are sunk forward and you look sad, what's going on these when we can share our sadness with somebody else. That connection. That's the thing of greatness right there. That's what living is all about. When we're sharing our feelings, our emotions, and we're connecting. I think that is the thing that is missing right now in this world. It's making people drop into more persistent sadness, or get triggered into more depression when we're feeling so disconnected from people. So it can be part of the solution. And in short term sadness, it can be the thing that yes, graduates you out of it. But it also gives you permission to show it and feel like somebody really cares.
Ned Johnson:Bill and I both got the chance to read an early copy of a terrific new book called raising a kid who can by Dr. Cathy McCarthy, either to disco and Jennifer Weaver. And there's a I'm about to interview them. Yeah, it's really lovely. And they have this I don't know I don't recall which chapter it is in the book, where they talk about the rather than the going into a cave, they're going into a tunnel of hard feelings. And they go through that. And they, they need to go through that. And if you help them and you don't try to take away those hard feelings, they keep going and come out the other side, which I thought was really lovely metaphor. Yes, folks to think about love
Dr Robyn Silverman:that that is beautiful. And that makes complete sense. You know, it's, it's a tunnel to get to the other side, but it's also a bridge to other people.
Ned Johnson:That's really well said,
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:Robert, could I ask you about the chapter that I another chapter really like on the self esteem and body? And? Absolutely, when dad and I were writing our second book are struck by how often the word enough? Am I good enough? Am I smart enough? Do I have enough? We actually thought about maple and put enough in the title? How do you help kids feel that they're good? Talk to us about that, there's got to be enough. There has to be more than
Dr Robyn Silverman:it's interesting that we live in a world right now that is so competitive, that asks our children to be the best in everything that they do. But it's in a very narrow definition of what's acceptable. So it's not actually enough to be great at finding the best rocks, you know, which is some people's talent, right? Or the best in certain activities in school that people don't value that highly. But in very specific things, you know, whether it's athletic, or it's certain things in school that are you're very popular, you're very social. You know, you think about those kids, and I certainly have a child like this, that is an incredible noticer notices things other people miss constantly. He is the finder of all last things. He is the kid you call when you have lost your keys, when you're trying to find where is that deer in the woods, he will spot that thing you lost your dog your call? No. But is it the thing that people would say, You know what I value in somebody we like, we like somebody who's extroverted, somebody who's really social, we want the kid who's going to stand in front of the class and, you know, be able to speak the most clearly and stand up, you know, at the pep rally and get everybody going. You know, we have some very specific things that we celebrate. And so I think that kids don't feel enough these days, and many adults don't. Because we don't celebrate everybody's gifts. It's not like, hey, I want you to do the beat. And we say this, I want you to be the best you can be no, we want you to be the best and things that we think are valuable.
Ned Johnson:I have noted there's no standardized test for Where's Waldo.
Dr Robyn Silverman:You are You are right, that totally aced that, though. Wow. Yeah. I think when parents can see their children for their real strengths, not the things that they particularly might value or how they grew up or what they are good at. My husband was a incredible hockey player, captain of the team. I was you know, the person at Center Stage theater, you know, the one who was the lead in the show singing the songs. I was the field hockey player, you know, on the state champion team. You're in theater. Oh, boy. Are you kidding? Do I hide it? Wow. Yes.
Ned Johnson:So actually, she was a mind.
Dr Robyn Silverman:Yes. So I think when people that when parents and teachers can notice the things that make kids really exemplary in their own wheelhouse, that's when we're really doing an exceptional job, teasing out that child's strengths and allowing them to rise and see themselves for their strengths. We're constantly comparing them in this very narrow way to what everybody else values, they're going to fall short. My kid's not going to be the best football player. He doesn't even like football, but he does hip hop dance, and he knows how to move. You know, he's the finder of all last things and I think that's super cool. My daughter is great. Oh my gosh, I asked her the other day, could you here's what I'd love you to do. Could you organize this drawer because that is not my strength and it is certainly yours and that that drawer is fabulous. All the pens, the pencils everything's in the perfect spot and like, Thank you, if we can help them see their strengths and then give them an opportunity to show them then allow them to hear that we value them for those strengths they've contributed. And they've been valued for those strengths in their unique way. They take it on as their personal I am, I am organized, I am a noticer. I am the finder of wall loss things. That is when they step up and they say pick me for this job. I am good at this job. I am valued for this job. I feel good about who I am, because this is a way I can contribute to this world. That makes a huge difference. Switching the language switching what they see. I am bossy No, I am assertive. I am ugly. Where did you get that? From? whose voices that who's told you that? Oh, well, there's this boy in fifth grade who told me I had a big nose? Well, let's call it what it is. Then when you say I am ugly in your head. That's Joel who said that? What is the job? Get to say anything? Like Who is this boy? And like, what's his deal? No. And Joe's in the room who invited Joel ill? Then you can help them? Who's about whose voice? Do you actually value Oh Katrina's voice, that's your best friend. Have her write a note to you and put it right up on your mirror on your bulletin boards like you are beautiful. Here's why. Here's what I love about you. Here's your insights. Here's your outsides. There's a lot we can do. And I provide a lot of them, obviously. But this is a chapter that resonates with me. Because I had my own issues in this department. I started off with the fact that I thought I was stupid, because I'm comparing myself to my brothers in a very narrow way. They excelled in mathematics. I didn't I excelled in other areas. But I didn't realize that they were important until I did.
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:Yeah, so many kids that I work with don't realize they're socially talented, everybody can't do it. And there's so many ways that the three of us make a living by by using our social competence and our ability to communicate.
Ned Johnson:Really, I wanted to make one quick observation of something that that you did, I think it's worth calling out about Noah that you're a noticer what little I've read and it probably learned it from you about when people use language that I am Yes, a thing, an attribute that this is a core of who I am, right. Yeah. And because this chapter you talk about sort of a deep dive on self esteem and but have this really low I thought was a lovely insight by Sue Adkins, who's of course work I think we all collectively love. And she has the point that self esteem is an inside job. And so when kids get sort of weaned on constant validation and affirmation from someone outside of them, there's a place for that when we can have kids have this idea that I am there holding this internally. And am I correct that when it's I am a notice her I am a listener, I am an observer, whatever, you know, I'm a friend. I'm a field hockey player, I'm a thespian, those are things that our core identity that I hold rather than what someone else holds about me.
Dr Robyn Silverman:Very much. So I feel like the I am statement, it's like a cloak you put on like, it's just who you are. It's just like you wrap yourself in it. It's, it's it's such an important statement. And it's how you go about the world. When we're, as parents, we're kind of like, you're the best, you're so good at this, you know, it's, it's not necessarily something that a kid can take in. And in fact, if they don't see it about themselves, they can completely reject it can be like You're lying. Or you have to say that you're my parent, they haven't seen it for themselves. That's why you want to make sure you're giving them opportunities to see it themselves. Like, look, what you did, this drawer is so organized, you are an organizer. And that over time, when they constantly are seeing that they realize, oh, this is a strength people value. And, and they take it on themselves. That's really important for kids, and to see that they can contribute to the world in a meaningful way. Because of their unique strength that somebody else doesn't have. That doesn't make them better than that person. It makes them different than that person, but it makes them as you as you can be. And you always want to bring the most you to the table when we're trying to be somebody else. That's when we cut our ourselves short. And we feel really terrible, because we're never going to measure up to being somebody else that will make sense.
Ned Johnson:Can you talk about this for a moment? This is something that I actually learned from Bill and so I was delighted to hear you pick up on this in the book as well. Of when we validate that we do it just to describe that I noticed that so it's observational rather than evaluative. Can you talk about that a little bit because I think This is an easy trap for any of us, as parents is, you know, grandparents and frame, whatever, to fall into trying to help kids feel better, we praise them, where you make this really great insight about when we observe rather than praise the power of that sort of sticking with kids more.
Dr Robyn Silverman:I'm a big fan of showing kids the evidence. And when we see, that's, that's what goes against the but you're my mother, you have to say that right? Like, I don't I don't actually have to say that. I don't have to say anything. What I've noticed is that when your friends have a problem, they all seem to come to you with it. Do you notice that too? What do you think that's about? Oh, I think you know, what they tell me is, I listened to that let them start churning about that, what it is about the circumstance that makes it so that strength is true, is once you start to kind of unearth that evidence, and they see it they went, Huh, wait a second. Yes, they do all come to me. And I think it's because I listen. Oh, so you're a really good listener. That's giving them the language, even a young age. And so then they start to piece it together. When you're talking to and Jenny, about how I came home. I was so frustrated and guess who came to be but my very own six year old daughter who told me You look really sad or stressed today? What's going on? She is such a good listener. Or she's such a she's so good at figuring out what's going on. What an empathetic person I know. Right? She did that with you to sushi overhear it? Now she's seeing that she's hearing about the evidence. That's good. She's gathering it. She's seeing it for herself. And so it's not like you going, Oh, you're the best at this because that is rejected or good job, which is one of my least favorite ways of praising somebody. It's so forgettable, they have no idea. I love I love saying something like, one thing I know about you is that when you have a really hard project in school, you do everything you can to gather up the research and really work hard. Like that's, that's something I consistently see. That's one thing I really know about you. And they're like, Yeah, I do do that. Because if I don't do that, then this happens. Well, you know what, that's a strength. So not everything. That's it's not something that everybody has, that's a unique strength. And I bet you you apply it in other parts of your life. Can you think of other times when you might be gathering up a lot of things to help somebody or help yourself? Oh, well, when there was this party, you know, for granddad like you remember I did blah, blah, blah, they start to really look for it, in how they interact with the world.
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:I'd love to talk for a minute about the chapters that have mistaken failure, hmm. Lecturing with the physician who works with medical students focus on medical education. And he focuses on the mental health of medical students, which is terrible. He said they all is toxic perfectionism. And they all feel like imposters.
Dr Robyn Silverman:I agree with you. I my friend, Dr. Jesse Gould talks a lot about how medical medical students are have really, really bad self esteem and they get burnout. They don't take care of themselves. Same with the medical field as you were talking about. I've heard a lot about that. Certainly, I have a lot of friends who are doctors. And we do need to help kids understand that mistakes are terrific. Like we want kids to make mistakes, and certainly want them to make them under our roof. Because if they don't make mistakes under our roof, and then they go out into the world and they realize, Oh, whoops, everything was really planned for me and I didn't make mistakes. And now I'm falling apart. Then we've got a problem. I was worried about the kid who's like never gotten to be you know, like, Okay, well, what's the world's going to be handing to you, because you're not going to get an A and everything throughout life. So we want kids to understand that mistakes are not the end of the world. They're not the end of the road. What we do want them to know is that mistakes and failure are attempts at learning something. So they give us an opportunity to learn and master things. And I love using stories. So I want them to know that the most accomplished people in the world are people who have made countless mistakes and then kept going. So if you think about athletes It's and they're batting average. Oh, we celebrate this batting averages is an amazing batting average. But that actually indicates that, you know, two out of the three times that they get up to bat. They don't do very well. What is that saying they've made mistakes, but they're celebrating their success. There's other people peak performers who are looking at each time they make a mistake as a simple attempt. And when they evaluate the attempt and where things went wrong, they can make a shift and make a change, and then do it differently than next time. So it's just a stop on the way along to get to success. So if we help children to realize I've made mistakes, here's how Walt Disney was fired from his job as a journalist for not being creative enough. Like that's hilarious. Right? Like, that's hilarious.
Ned Johnson:I didn't know that.
Dr Robyn Silverman:Dr. Seuss 27 times he had to submit his books before somebody was like, Hey, I think this might make a good book. Dr. Seuss. Right. So, right, like those publishers are like, Oh, whoops. Okay. So if you give them some stories that actually resonate with them, or their reader of Dr. Seuss, like what, you know, are they an athlete that this might resonate with them? You know, we all know what happened with Madame Curie, you know, we want you we want people to understand that the scientists that Einstein that all these people have made mistakes. And in fact, research tells us that when we give college students these stories, so even all the way up, you know, college students, if they hear that, Einstein made these mistakes, or Madame Curie made these mistakes, they feel so much better about themselves and actually will be so much more apt to achieve and not get stagnated by mistakes. So share those stories, share your personal stories, and make mistakes. Not only okay, but something that should absolutely happen. Because if you're not making mistakes, you're not taking risks. And if you're not taking risks, you may never find your passion.
Ned Johnson:I love that phrase. mistakes aren't the end of the world or the end of the road. That's right.
Dr Robyn Silverman:I just want people to know like, I want parents to know I have gotten this. I don't know if you have I bet you you have where people are like your kids must be so perfect. Like oh my gosh, having you as their mom, I'm like you have got to be kidding me. I mean, not only are they human, but so am I like I absolutely lost it. I have stood in the middle of my stairs and just screamed like into the ceiling. You know, like rise is happening at I have had the moment where where I am talking words coming out of my mouth and something on the side, like right here by my ear going really? Is that the best you can do? Yes, in this moment, that's the best I have. And then of course you get very good at apologizing. Like Oops, my daughter who is very empathetic has this is almost embarrassing to say but I will say it because I think it's helpful is that she like has seen me going up anger mountain. She has starting to unravel, walked over to me held my hands and said Mom, just take a breath. It's okay. Because Mom, I love you. You're okay and I'm like Darby Is this my at the time like preteen daughter, telling me, Dr. Robin child development specialist who's had a masterclass of every expert and best selling author come onto her podcast and tell her how to talk to kids. And my daughter is doing this with me. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, but yes, that is right. That's probably on the first page. It has been X days since I've lost my you know. It's just I want people to understand that this has happened to me. Somebody who said to me Melissa warty who's you know written written some great stuff on anxiety and redefining girly just amazing stuff. She said to me, I had written an article on how at the moment like when my children were jumping on the couch and screaming and she wrote she like said to me, this is like a long time ago on Facebook. Thank goodness. Like if this is happening to you, I am feeling so much better. about what's happening.
Ned Johnson:That's good. Thought that popped in my head. And I've shared sometimes when we're speaking is that in my experience? The only perfect parents that I've met are people who of course, don't have children yet.
William R Stixrud, Ph.D:Hey, Rob, I love the chapter two on friendships. And one thing I really love is the way you and I see I see this happening so much in the kids that I work with, is you talk about various kinds of toxic friendships. And I think helping kids understand that is really helped to talk through that a little
Dr Robyn Silverman:bit. This is a touchy chapter for me, because not only did I obviously experience that, I mean, my bullying situation was based on friendships. It was, it was a girl who was my best friend only outside of school in school. She wasn't actually like, she wouldn't talk to me. Or she'd be mean to me. Yeah, it was awful. It's still awful. It's still awful, okay, it's still one of the worst years of my life. So I'm very well experienced in toxic friendships. And it actually really helped mold. A lot of me growing up, I had a lot of issues with friendships, because I was both extremely trusting and then to, like, giving of myself like, I don't want that to sound like Oh, poor Rob. But no, I mean, like, I, I think I like almost tried too hard to make people like me. And so I had these problems with friendships. So I wanted to make sure that I educated people on on social skills and friendships, as I grew older and realized where I was going wrong, and the type of people I really liked being around. And now I feel just so happy with my friends. And I've had some friends that have lasted many, many, many, many years, you know, one from age two, and I just adore her like a sister. But there are people that you realize how many times you have to learn the same lesson. And you recognize them sooner. Like you're like, oh, wait, this is This is that same, the same situation I'm out, right. And that's, that's part of the benefit of going through the experience. My daughter also had gone through the same experience almost almost the same experience as me in that same time, like fifth grade. And I wrote a wrote an article on it for the New York Times. And you know, what was the biggest Savior was a COVID. Like, that's, that's horrible to say. But when we got knocked out of school from COVID, it gave her like the perspective she needed, that she had been working on these friendships that were never going to be the right thing for her and was able to switch gears. And it was it's such a godsend. So when it comes to toxic friendships, sometimes it's hard for kids to understand what what they're going through when they just hear like, she's not good for you, or he's not good for you, or like, why are you letting him do that to you? It's, I like to start and when I'm presenting I do this with what is your definition of what a real friend is, like, if you think of like, your closest friend, like the person you feel the best with? What is your like top qualities of a friend. And maybe they're saying something like, like caring or inclusive or kind or, you know, loyal or funny, or whatever their thing is, might be different from yours. And then you can ask them to then like, let's, let's now look at this friend of yours that you've come home with, and you've kept saying, like, this is what they're doing. Would you describe them in these ways? Like these three qualities that you just mentioned, your personal definition of friendship, not mine? And well, they're, they're kind only sometimes they're definitely not loyal, and that I have fun with them sometimes. But a lot of times I don't. And you, you were, well, by your own definition, and like they are they being a friend to you. So if you can allow them to be the ones who are speaking about it, they can often come up with how that person is toxic, and then you change it to so tell me, who is your definition of friendship, like who really does embody that? And they can come up with the people. And like, you know, like, why don't we invite them over? Like or like, let's do something with them. Like, let's deepen that friendship. Who do you see these qualities and that can be really beneficial to them. But just trying to like push it on them? That often doesn't work. Not with anything, right?
Ned Johnson:Yeah. I don't think it works with with children. I don't think it worked with friends. I don't think it works with significant others
Dr Robyn Silverman:other No, oh, no. Like, did we learn this lesson yet?
Ned Johnson:Last time I checked, well, I love where you end the acknowledgments at the end of your book where you Go chapter by chapter and thanking all the people. So many people who offered Oh my goodness. And of course it's it's like trip down memory lane of you know Robinson, Dr. Robin Silverman, this is your life, right? So all those people for the last last six years, but it's certainly I mean, to me it speaks to three things, one, just how much hard work you've put into talking with people and gathering up all the learning you can to the marvelous gratitude that you have for all those people. We were happy to have a little cameo in there. So thank you very much for that. And three really modeling that for any of us nobody's born intrinsically knowing how to get it. Right right. And your openness about this your your humility, about live streaming at the top of my lungs and the stairs, you know, all of that is so is so helpful because for any paranormal, we can beat ourselves up, we can fill our own shame about the mistakes that we made, we can feel perfectionist or despair. And to go back to the line that you have, it's not the end of the world and it's not the end of the road. And if all goes right, we're going to have very long relationships with our kids. And so when we when they have bumpy times, and we have bumpy times it's just part of it. And in my my kids are 19 and 21 This is the first week of my life as an empty nester. Oh, and but still, right. I know congratulations to my wife and me. Yeah. Wow. And but still, you know, we'll have this relationship and I think of this book, How to talk with kids about anything because you know, our kids will be our you know, they may not be children, but they'll be our kids forever. And it's a pretty nice how to, you know, map to take as we walk along that path with them. So thank you so much for writing this book. Thank you for being our guest. It's nice to have the chance to reciprocate because boy, oh boy, you're good at what you do and help a lot of people.
Dr Robyn Silverman:Oh, that means so much to me. I am so grateful to both of you and to the countless experts that helped to educate me. I really do believe that my podcast is like a master class. Every time I sit down to talk to people, I learned something and that feels really good to me. But it doesn't feel good enough to just keep it to myself. So I'm glad I wrote the book to get it out to everybody else.
Ned Johnson:I love it. Dr. Robin Silverman get the book people get the book, How to talk with kids about anything. I am Ned Johnson, co author with Dr. William sticks, you'd have the self different child and what he say and host of the self driven child podcast. Go live your kids and keep talking with them. Hey folks, Ned here. Over the past 25 years I've talked with 1000s of parents of high school students, parents who care deeply about their kids education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed. But these parents need to work with a team they trust roaches pile on more pressure to achieve better grades and scores. This is why I started prep matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation, tutoring in college admissions planning. This podcast and my books reflect our company's philosophy and approach to helping students if you have a high school student and we'd like to talk about putting in place a plan, please get in touch with us visit our website at prep matters.com or call 301-951-0350. That's 301-951-0350 Thanks