The Sleep-Deprived Teen with Lisa L. Lewis

Listen in as I chat with Journalist Lisa L. Lewis about the importance of sleep for teens. We explore why sleep matters for learning, behavior, and mental health. Lisa also shares her pivotal role in getting California to pass a landmark law on healthy school start times. We covered everything from the science of sleep to practical tips for ensuring our teens get the rest they need. You won't want to miss this episode if you're looking to understand the crucial role sleep plays in your teenager's life and well-being.

Lisa L. Lewis is a leading expert on adolescent sleep who played an instrumental role in California passing a first-of-its-kind state law regulating middle and high school start times. Her book "The Sleep-Deprived Teen" is described by Ariana Huffington as "a call to action" and by Daniel Pink as "an urgent and timely read."

Episode Highlights:
[01:19] The issue with sleep deprivation on children and teens.
[03:15] An op-ed Lisa wrote helped catalyze major statewide revolutionary change around school start times in California.
[04:57] Lisa’s personal experience with her child in school starting very early in the morning.
[05:33] Lisa put on her Journalism hat and researched other schools and the research on sleep deprivation.
[12:26] Lisa highlights how being sleep deprived makes learning far more difficult across all stages.
[18:17] Beyond duration, irregular sleep seriously sabotages academic performance too.
[20:39] Lack of sleep eats away at teens' emotional resilience, exacerbating conditions like anxiety.
[25:26] Exploring the challenges and solutions for changing school start times to benefit teen sleep.
[30:43] Coordinated statewide change helps bypass complications related to sports scheduling across districts.
[37:40] One remarkable example: a Florida school saw disciplinary issues, absentee rates and more improve after start times shifted later.
[47:14] The importance of making sleep a family priority for both teens and parents.

Links & Resources:
•"The Sleep-Deprived Teen" by Lisa L. Lewis: https://www.lisallewis.com/book
•The Self-Driven Child by Bill Stixrud and Ned Johnson
•What Do You Say? by Bill Stixrud and Ned Johnson

If this episode has struck a chord with you, remember to rate, follow, and share the Self-Driven Child Podcast. Your support helps us reach more people and create more content that makes a difference. Here's to growing, learning, and thriving as adults in this wild world. Until next time!

If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com

Transcript

Lisa L. Lewis: 0:49

They find that when people are sleep deprived, just your perception of the world changes in terms of looking at people's expressions and interpreting them more negatively, well, you've really sort of dampens your your emotional resiliency, if you will. I mean, that's what we're talking about here is being resilient, so that when you are faced with stressors throughout your day, and that can be test anxiety, that can even be discrimination. I mean, there's a whole other aspect to this. But basically, your emotional resiliency is just not there. When you are sleep deprived, you're able to sort of refill those reserves when you get a good night's sleep. So you are starting off with a full tank, you're better able better equipped to deal with all those stressors, and better able to do all those tasks, whatever they may be, whether it's learning whether it's playing sports, so you're going to do better in the first place. So you're not going to feel as frustrated about it. And you're not going to feel that frustration as intensely either, because you're feeling much more emotionally balanced.

Ned Johnson: 1:48

Welcome to the self driven Job Podcast. I'm your host, Ned Johnson, and co author with Dr. Williams pictured of the books, the self driven child, the science and sense of giving your kids more control over their lives. And what do you say, how to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance, and to happy home. Parents, you probably don't like having your kids be cranky, and probably kids don't like being cranky themselves. They probably also don't like their parents being cranky. If you're a teacher, you don't like students who fall asleep during class. It's kind of invalidating kids probably don't like falling asleep in class because those desks just aren't that comfy. On top of all of that, we as parents and as educators probably should have a little bit of concern about developing brains, what's important for learning and for developing brains and for having kids who aren't overly cranky? Well, among other things, not being too doggone tired. From a mental health perspective, being too tired and to stress for too long is pretty much perfect recipe for developing anxiety and depression and all those things that we really don't want kids to have. And being too tired makes for really lousy learners. Which is why I am thrilled today to have as my guest, someone who knows a heck of a lot about teens and teen brains and sleep deprivation and what it does to those brains. Lisa Lewis is the author of the sleep deprived teen why our teenagers are so tired and how parents and schools can help them thrive. It's described as a call to action by Ariana Huffington and an urgent and timely read by Daniel Pink. Lisa's written for the Atlantic, the Washington Post New York Times in the LA Times, among others in his appeared on The Today Show, WBUR onpoint, BBC World Radio, and local radio and TV and La San Francisco and really all over the place she presents to schools and organizations about the central role of sleep. She was also parent of two in California with her family, she has raised two kids and she's a hero, not only to them, but to pretty much every teen in California because she was singular in California passing a landmark law on Healthy Schools start times. So I'm delighted to have Lisa join me. She's one of my heroes and a hero to many. Lisa, welcome. Thank

Lisa L. Lewis: 4:11

you so much, Ned, it is lovely to be here with you.

Ned Johnson: 4:15

So I got to start with the law. I understand this just went through right about a year ago. Yeah,

Lisa L. Lewis: 4:21

yeah. I mean, it's funny, the whole process really was a multi year journey. But it did only actually go into effect in the summer of 2022. So this is only the second school year that it has been in effect. And as you mentioned, yeah, at the time, it was the first law of its kind in the entire country. Basically, California being the first state in the nation to set minimum allowed start times for middle and high schools. And I say the first because there is now a second one. But it hasn't actually gone into effect. And that state is Florida. They signed this into law last year. But similar as to what we had in California, there's a three year period implementation window, if you will. So it actually doesn't go into effect until 2026. But yeah, so California, the only state right now with a law that's actually in effect, and that's like 3.2 million kids when you think of the number of middle and high schoolers in California's public school system.

Ned Johnson: 5:20

Wow. And I'm in some ways, frankly, a little amazed that Florida is is second in line, but I guess knowing what we know about sleep, the sunshine state cannot have sunny, sunny or kids being a little bit more well rested. So that'll be great. Now I want to ask well, tell me a little bit about the origin story of this book and that legislation kind of which was the CIC which was the egg for for folks who don't know,

Lisa L. Lewis: 5:42

yes, yes. It all actually did start really at a personal level really what was happening within my family see me Richard, I'm a parent, I have two kids. My oldest is now 22. But I got involved back in 2015, because that was when he was just entering high school. And at that point, our local high school where we lived at the time in Southern California, started at 730 in the morning. So, yeah, it was so early, it was the earliest,

Ned Johnson: 6:10

let's go to the coal mine children. Well, and here,

Lisa L. Lewis: 6:13

here's the thing. So I started looking into it, because it felt so incredibly early, and it was earlier than he had had all the way through school. So of course, that sort of propelled me into action, because as a journalist, you know, I sort of put on my journalism hat and started trying to understand like, why does it start so early? And is this an anomaly. And unfortunately, what I found out was no, it was not at all unusual. There are still schools in this country that start as early as 7am. And when I say start, I mean mandatory first period, not those zero periods, optional classes. So this is absolutely still a very real issue in so many different districts around the country. So for me, it was 2015, that kind of galvanized me into getting involved. And at that point, I should say, you know, this was not a new issue, even back then, there was already a body of research. And it just so happens that at that point, when I kind of entered the conversation, it was just starting to really build more critical mass. So when you think back to the policy statement that the American Academy of Pediatrics put out, recommending that middle and high school start no later than 830 that had just come out in 2014. So here I am in 2015, on the heels of this very influential policy statement, starting to get involved starting to write about it

Ned Johnson: 7:35

not influential enough. When you look at the number of schools that go, interesting, keep on going. Anyway, back to you. Yeah,

Lisa L. Lewis: 7:45

no. And that is the sad truth is we know the science is there. It has been invalidated numerous times. So that was that statement, though, was actually influential also in that it was the first of many, you know, since that point, the CDC has concurred the African Medical Association, American Psychological Association, I mean, you will be hard pressed to find a group out there related to kids public health issues, medical issues that isn't going to emphasize the importance of sleep. So I got involved. So we're back in 2015, I got involved because I was seeing the effects of this. I was seeing my very tired, you know, high school freshmen, I was seeing what it was like, as we were leaving the house at 710. Because I was driving him to school, and he was there in the car. He was physically present, but he was hardly alert. And it was, you know, it's pretty obvious to anybody that somebody who's barely awake is just not being set up for success, right? When it comes to school. Well,

Ned Johnson: 8:41

you know, it's funny to me, we have a liner book, when we say if we were educators, we'd rather teach kids for four hours who've slept for eight, than to try to teach them for eight when they've slept for four. I mean, it's just so utterly injurious to to learning and from my perspective, not only a colossal waste of adolescent energy, but a pretty lousy ROI on our tax dollars, right to like, oh, you get to teach, you know, history to zombies. Oh,

Lisa L. Lewis: 9:09

my goodness. Yeah. And and when I was writing my book, The sleep deprived teen, I did talk to students who did admit falling asleep, I talked to teachers about what it was like to be just sort of have that additional burden. You want to be standing up in front of the class and teaching, you don't want to also have to be responsible for literally keeping them awake, and thinking of ways that clever ways that you can kind of jostle them back into, you know, into a waking state. But you're right, that that is the reality still in so many places.

Ned Johnson: 9:39

I was I was telling a student of mine, I talk a lot about sleep to teens, and in my work as test prep. And recall the student this is at least 20 years ago, who was whatever's going on that day, he was pretty tired. And he's he's sort of propping his forehead up with his hand and he's covering his eyes and acting like he's not falling asleep. And so I just waited. I said nothing for about 30 seconds and he falls fast asleep. So I got up tiptoed out of my office late about given 1012 minutes for a power nap, made some Xerox or something came back and pretending not to notice that he had not fallen asleep and he pretended not to have. And we've commenced and we picked up our lesson and kept on going. It was hilarious. And

Lisa L. Lewis: 10:24

he probably was better able to participate after having even that tiny little nap than he would have been without it.

Ned Johnson: 10:32

I think you're 100% right from what from what I know of the science is very much on your on your side. Yes.

Lisa L. Lewis: 10:39

So real quick, just to kind of finish that that story because it it actually has spanned ever since 2015. So I started writing about this issue and it just so happened that one of the Arctic As I wrote, which was an op ed that ran in the Los Angeles Times 2016, ended up being read by one of our California state senators. And it just so happened that he had a high schooler of his own at at that point in time. And in fact, this was an issue that was being talked about at their school. So he literally read my op ed in the newspaper, it resonated with him. He decided it was an issue he really did want to look into further, he ended up doing that I got swept up in that whole journey. I mean, literally, I was pulled in even before that the first iteration of the bill was introduced. So this was back in 2017. It just snowballed from there. I ended up testifying at the state capitol, it was a lengthy two and a half year process from that bill first being introduced to being signed into law. Then there was that three year implementation window that brings us to 2022. Meanwhile, after the bill had gotten signed, because of all these connections I've made, you know, with all these researchers around the country, and having just been steeped in the salon. That is what led to me writing the book, the sleep deprived teen. So that was the Yeah, so I guess the law was the chicken the book was the egg.

Ned Johnson: 11:59

And if I'm if I may, for those always wondered, what value does in teens, especially if you're listening to this. This, my friends is Exhibit A for what good journalism does because good journalism, a good law, Hey, we love good laws, better outcomes, better learning environment for everyone who's involved in cares about kids healthy brain development, and better better learning. So kudos to you as a journalist, and as a parent. That's pretty. That's pretty fun.

Lisa L. Lewis: 12:27

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's I have to say, it's, it's been this this, you know, what is that now going on close to 10 years now, I've just been absolutely immersed in sleep. But I will say and you alluded to this before the you know, the importance of sleep for us as adults, I have absolutely become much more intentional about my own sleep as a result. So it benefits our teens. It benefits us too. I mean, I always say there's not one thing that any of us do any better as a result of being sleep deprived.

Ned Johnson: 12:53

No, we can talk about some things we do. Well, some of the really bad outcomes from that. We'll get to that in a second. Let me ask this just to frame things up for folks. What's the current state of sleep meaning for teenagers? How much sleep should they be getting? And what do sort of big pictures statistics say, kids are getting?

Lisa L. Lewis: 13:13

Yes, yeah. Because there is the official recommendation, as you alluded to, and then there's the reality. So the official recommendation, which is in fact, more than what many people think, is that our teams should be getting eight to 10 hours of sleep every single night. So that is up until they are a teen, if you're getting eight hours, which is sort of this number we always hear about, well, that's great for us as adults, that's the midpoint of our range, but it's only the minimum that our teens should be getting. And when I say teens, that's 14 to 18 year olds. So when we're talking about younger teens and tweens, they need even more, they need nine to 11 hours. So just to think first about the actual, you know, true recommendations for sleep that's often much higher than what people tend to assume so eight to 10 hours for teens. So as far as how many are getting it? Well, the most recent data that I've seen, which came out last year from the CDC, this is part of their Youth Risk Behavior Survey, they asked high schoolers, a whole range of different questions, you know, related to help them behaviors. One of them is about sleep. And what they found was that only 23% of our US high schoolers said that they were getting at least eight hours of sleep, generally speaking. Wow. So that just gives you a sense of the magnitude of this sleep deprivation that is that is just, you know, rampant right now among our teams. In

Ned Johnson: 14:36

your introduction, you mentioned just lay he making sharing some of this information with an auditorium full of kids who basically responding by throwing back their heads. And laughing I don't know whether it was derisively or if it just add abject misery that like what what a fanciful idea it might be to get eight to 10 hours of sleep a night and, and certainly I see that with most of the kids with whom I speak. But let's go, let's go through this kind of three big things. One, I'd like to talk about why it matters for learning why it matters for behaviors that we'd like to avoid when mental health and then kind of some brain science in there. So from a learning perspective, I mean, because a lot of people like Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, I, I got seven hours of sleep all the way through and I ended up at, you know, Stanford or whatever. You know, people a lot of people think they did great, even when they're not getting enough sleep. What is the science tell us about learning and sleep?

Lisa L. Lewis: 15:38

Yeah, that's a great question. So And to your point, you can still manage to perform. I mean, obviously, people who are sleep deprived are still going through their days, it's just that much harder. And that's the case To when it comes to learning. So there's there are three primary ways that being sleep deprived affects learning. And that is, while you are acquiring that new information, so while that actual learning is taking place, you know, sitting in the classroom learning, if you're sitting at home, reading your textbook, you know, or reading a book, if and I'm sure all of us have had that experience of you sort of try and read and you realize you've read the same page five times in a row, and nothing has sunk in. So that's sort of an example of how when you're sleep deprived, it really kind of impedes that process of acquiring that new information. The second is retaining that information. And that's because so much of learning and memory really does happen during sleep. So when we're awake, we're taking in all this new information, all this new stimuli, but during sleep is when that's actually sort of an oversimplification of it. But what's described as moving that information from short term into long term storage, it's when the brain is kind of figuring out which pieces to keep out of that information. So for instance, you know, you and I having this conversation here, there's all this stimuli right now, there's the visual piece of me looking at you, there's the content of what we're talking about, there's, you know, whatever else I'm hearing in the background. So when I think about what I'll remember from our conversation today, you know, my brain will be tonight, deciding which pieces it's important to keep, I may not remember that cute pattern on your shirt, but I'll remember the context of our conversation, because that's what's most important to extract. And that's what our brains are doing while we're sleeping. And then it's also taking that information, and kind of integrating it with other past knowledge that we have, that's part of creativity and forming new insights. So that's that whole retention phase, broadly speaking. And then the final piece is when it comes time to retrieve that information. So when you're sleep deprived, it's much harder to recall that information, which, of course, is why I guess that that adage, you know, to get a good night's sleep before a test, because you want your brain to be firing on all cylinders, and not kind of struggling to have to retrieve that information that you know, you learned not that long ago. Yeah.

Ned Johnson: 18:03

I used to give a lot of lectures to schools about this. And I always said, you know that you've studied, you know that that answer is somewhere in the filing cabinet of your brain. But the little guy who's supposed to walk to the back and pull it I was like Coburg later? He looked at the 16 times like, yep. Access denied.

Lisa L. Lewis: 18:23

Yes, absolutely. That's such a great way to think about it. Yeah, it just the way like people, you know, you'll see students literally falling asleep on their desks you can think of Yeah, the little gatekeeper of the information. Yeah, they get tired too.

Ned Johnson: 18:34

Yeah, you know, and it also your your point about consolidating knowledge of learning so that it sticks with us long term, there's a statistic I ran across that said, at least in public schools, most kids will forget 90% of what they've learned within three months. So it was taught, but it wasn't if it's not retained, was it ever really learned? I mean, they get the A, but there's nothing to show for that, apart from the last chapter that just studied, which is, again, maybe not the best use of tax dollars in teenage time.

Lisa L. Lewis: 19:07

Absolutely. Absolutely. The one other piece that's really key dimension, because we're talking about, you know, sleep loss, and what's the optimal amount of sleep to get. The other piece, which is super interesting, which a lot of people don't always think about is sleep consistency. So not having your sleep ping pong wildly, you know, getting enough sleep one night getting by on four hours the next night, that actually getting keeping us consistent schedule. And getting consistent sleep actually really matters. When it comes to well, a whole host of things. There's all sorts of long term health implications. But even for learning, it matters. I actually had a statistic I pulled, there was a study done at MIT, actually. And they I think this was a psychology classic for undergrads. And what they found was that the students who slept well, both in terms of the duration as well as not having this wild, you know, inconsistency for the entire month prior to midterms got higher scores, and that those who sleep fluctuated, got lower scores. So that's another key piece here, which is to think about sleep as an overall, you know, something that you need to every night, you don't just need it the night before the test.

Ned Johnson: 20:19

It's such a good point. And when I when I talk with kids, I say ask, have you ever been jet lagged? And then you walk through and say, well, that's basically what you're doing right? If you stay up until two o'clock on Saturday night, and then sleep until 11. And then you have to get up at seven o'clock on Monday. That's

Lisa L. Lewis: 20:36

exactly, exactly they call that social jetlag. That is exactly what that is. And I

Ned Johnson: 20:41

gather there was a research that just came out maybe a couple months ago, I think was Matthew Walker, that sleep consistency that you were just talking about is even I think getting enough sleep is one of the best predictors of longevity. So, yes, yes.

Lisa L. Lewis: 20:56

Which I know our teens are not necessarily thinking about that super long term. But in fact, yes, there are studies that show that sleep inconsistency can be a predictor of early mortality. It has been implicated in cardiovascular disease. I mean, the just across the board, there are so many implications when you that come from not getting enough sleep. I think for our students, though, I mean, for them, it is important. They're thinking about learning, they're thinking about how to maximize. And then as you mentioned, the mental health piece, too, is just huge, especially for this age group.

Ned Johnson: 21:29

Well, let's talk a little bit about that. Why is sleep so important for mental health?

Lisa L. Lewis: 21:34

If you think about it, it's true for us too, as adults, that this is just sort of across the board. If you wake up and you've gotten a good night's sleep, you feel great. You know, you can just you feel refreshed, you feel ready to take on the day. If you haven't gotten enough sleep, it is the opposite. And you know, that feeling of just dragging through your day feeling crabby, and it also affects us emotionally. So if you haven't gotten enough sleep, you feel things more intensely, your emotions run hotter. And so it does actually exacerbate as you were talking about earlier, things like anxiety. In fact, it exacerbates mental health issues across the board anxiety, depression, even suicidality. But for our teens, that sense of the sort of increase in the emotional reactivity is, in some ways, even harder for them. Because for us, as adults, when we have that we have the benefit of a fully mature fully developed prefrontal cortex. So yes, I see you nodding because brain development is so massive, and it's going on that that final, you know, remodeling phase is going on throughout the teen years. At the end of it, they have this fully functioning prefrontal cortex, which is the executive functioning, it's the piece that rational thinking decision making kind of to help temper that increase in emotionality. So we have that they don't yet have that. I mean, they have a prefrontal cortex, but that stage of of, you know, the pruning and the redevelopment and the refinement is still you know, it's like hanging out a big under construction sign, you know, you think about it, but it comes to their brain development. When

Ned Johnson: 23:07

they go add to that, just to round that out. Two things. Actually, when we think about executive functions, most people know this. And they think about organization and planning and problem solving, decision making, all those kinds of things are super important for academic success and career success and navigate in our days, but in addition to those, there is cognitive flexibility and emotional flexibility. And this is really just the ability to put things into perspective. So as you pointed out, before, you wake up from a good night's sleep and you feel better, and you can just you're kind of ready to handle the problems that you didn't handle yesterday and kind of face the world and so, part of that emotional reactivity. emotionality, as you describe is, when people are underestimated. The amygdala is wildly the mum William dimension, who whose research you look at so much talks about kind of a hyperactive amygdala, in part because you jack up the amount of cortisol, this dominant stress hormone. So you've got this super reactive stress response that kind of barks at everybody and everything. And then that prefrontal cortex you describe the kind of runs the show really is, is nowhere to be seen, doesn't control things and tell your tell stressed on that, hey, net, and there, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's okay. And this, of course, leads to not only bad behavior, but but a lot of mental health problems. If when you have things that are stressful if you if you struggle as a young person to put those things into context. So back to where my introduction of too stressed and too tired for too long, because you're feeling things, as you say, so intensely, and then you're not able to handle them in ways that are effective. Oh,

Lisa L. Lewis: 24:45

absolutely. Yeah, to your point, other studies that Matthew Walker has done that, you know, they find that when people are sleep deprived, just your perception of the world changes in terms of looking at people's expressions and interpreting them more negatively, that just it's like you've you've really sort of dampens your your emotional resiliency, if you will. I mean, that's what what we're talking about here is being resilient so that when you are faced with stressors throughout your day, and that can be test anxiety, that can even be discrimination. I mean, there's a whole other, you know, aspect to this. But basically, your emotional resiliency is just not there when you are sleep deprived. And you're able to sort of refill those reserves when you get a good night's sleep. So you are starting off with a full tank, you're better able better equipped to deal with all those stressors, and better able to do all those tasks, whatever they may be, whether it's learning whether it's playing sports, so you're going to do better in the first place. So you're not going to feel as frustrated about it. And you're not going to feel that frustration as intensely either because you're free You're feeling much more emotionally balanced.

Ned Johnson: 25:51

So let me ask this though, if we, as you have shared, if it is so clear how valuable sleep is to learning, and so powerful for kids being well balanced and able to be emotionally resilient in a world that kind of throws a lot of curveballs at them. Why are schools fighting this? What's the pushback that you get? Why isn't this being done everywhere? As as it has been in California? Yeah,

Lisa L. Lewis: 26:15

that's a great question. school start times. Right now, we're kind of all over the map, because there is no, you know, mandated minimum start time other than now, you know, California, and we're starting to see and hopefully it will continue in other states. But to such a large degree, start times were originally dictated by other factors that had nothing to do with student health and well being specifically the school bus schedule. That may have been one of the largest drivers, if you will, of our early start times. Because, you know, as a way to rein in budgets, you know, when schools are looking to do that, and this goes back decades, and they were thinking, Oh, well, we can just use one fleet of buses to do the drop offs and pickups for elementary, middle and high. So we'll just do the staggered schedule. Well, at that point, decades ago, a lot of the research of what we know now about teen sleep, and the fact that they actually have this circadian rhythm shift that takes place during adolescence, meaning that they are not sleepy till later in the evening, they're not ready to wake until later, that wasn't yet well known. So often, by default, the teens were the ones put in that earliest time slot, the thinking being, oh, they're older, they should be better able to handle this. Well. Now, we know that if anything, it's the exact opposite, that if you have a tiered schedule, you're better off having teens, you know, on the latest drop off. But I call these legacy schedules, because so many of them have endured, they've just become entrenched in what people see as normal. Paradoxically,

Ned Johnson: 27:47

much like zombies, they refuse to die.

Lisa L. Lewis: 27:51

Well, no, and it's true, because we have this large body of research out there, it has been proven time and time again, when school start later, teens get more sleep. So as for the pushback, there's, you know, a few broad areas, and these come up, pretty much every single time the conversation gets raised. Because it's this has been done at the state level, as we've been talking about, it's also been done on a patchwork basis across the country, and in the districts a smallest one school. But when the issue gets raised there, there are broadly three main issues that come up, the first is really just kind of the resistance to change, which is so powerful. And when you think about it, too, it's it's for parents, too, you know, I know you have kids, you've you've gone through this whole process of having raising them through elementary, middle and high. And in so many districts, there are different times for starts and end times for each of those. So, as parents, we're already quite familiar with having to, you know, shift our schedules based on those schedules and, and, you know, arrange our lives around the school schedule. So when you talk about making a change, often that's like the knee jerk reaction of Oh, please, not another change. I've just gotten this carefully. So there is that very real kind of hesitancy because, you know, change is a short term inconvenience. Second piece is transportation, getting back to

Ned Johnson: 29:17

these bus schedules, logistics and cost, right. So

Lisa L. Lewis: 29:20

yes, and and I should also say, none of these that I mentioned, these three areas are deal breakers. But these are the things that come up. These are also things that in every district that has changed, they have addressed and successfully done so. So school transportation comes up often, in part because they have the schedules in place. But you know, in some cases, they haven't reevaluated those schedules in quite some time. And there are ways to redo it. And the other piece, too, is like I mentioned some high schools that start at 7am. Well, in that scenario, you wouldn't want to just do a flip and have elementary school start at seven. I mean, I would argue there's just a point in time when it's just too early for anyone to be going to school,

Ned Johnson: 29:59

there's a reason why most of us don't go to work for 7am Start anyway. Well,

Lisa L. Lewis: 30:03

exactly. And that's Oh my goodness, I could go off on that. The third piece though, is sports. This is that the other sort of third most common issue that comes up because of the perceived impact on after school practices, etc. So, again, this comes up but this is, you know, continues to get successfully addressed. What happens is, you know, the, if the entire school day shifts later practice shifts later. However, in so many cases, there are other factors that kind of negate, you know, any any potential downfall to that, like the fact that your assistant coaches may have jobs elsewhere and are coming after work, or that you can maybe have two teams practicing on the same field or figuring out how To share, so you don't have to just assume, Oh, they're just going to practice into the evening? Or maybe do they really need to have a three hour practice things like that their primary role as high school students is to be in school not to be prepping for a pro athlete career. And then the one last piece, and then I know I just I get very passionate about this. The one last piece, though, about sports. So that is you, you know, you have to coordinate with the other districts if you've changed your time. Well, that's often the case anyway, if you're in say, a, you know, public school and your your district may have schools with different schedules, but the magic of having the change happened at the statewide level, is that they all change so you don't have to go through those type of negotiations.

Ned Johnson: 31:33

That makes a ton of sense. Two thoughts come to mind. For me one about all of the logistics, there's a great educator named Jonathan Kozol who has a line something to the effect of, if it is pedagogically sound, it must be administratively feasible. And we do all these things, we'll say we'll do anything for our kids anything for our kids, except, except change his schedule, to allow them to get the sleep that developing bodies and brains need. The second thing that occurs to me that you have so many schools talk about are evidence based education or evidence based education. And there is arguably no greater amount of evidence in support of anything in education than is the abundant research that supports the benefits of sleep. So it is slightly curious to me I'm smiling when I'm thinking about the sports thing, because I, if I understand correctly, right now in California, there was an adult law that was under consideration to prevent kids under certain age from being able to play tackle football. Oh, yes. And apparently that is being was or has been shot down. Because, again, from my perspective, I think about we think about the effects of stress on developing brains a little bit like we think about the effects of too many blows to the head, neither of which mind you is particularly good for developing brains.

Lisa L. Lewis: 32:55

Absolutely. And I will just say on that note, I actually have written quite a bit about concussions. This same child of mine, my son, who, you know, sparked my interest in this subject of Early Start Times also happened to play football while he was in high school, which led me also to write quite a bit about sports six sports safety and to look into this issue and and yes, you're right that the the issue of concussions, even repeat sub concussive hits absolutely has a long term impact. I'm going to bring it back to sleep though, because there is also a link between sleep deprivation and injury risk. So for athletes, that is absolutely something to keep in mind. When you are sleep deprived, it affects your reflexes, it affects your timing and affects your responsiveness, it overall increases your risk for injury. So that's something to keep in mind. The other piece of it is when you have gotten enough sleep, you can think of sleep as a competitive advantage, because it has been shown to improve your performance. So if you're looking for that magic elixir, you know, it's getting a full night's sleep.

Ned Johnson: 34:03

Oh, I love that you brought that back in May I'm smiling because I'm thinking of a student who whom I worked with a few years ago who was a football player, he was a running back, he was like, he was five, eight, and 180 pounds and benchpress like a million pounds. But he was also he went he broke every single Russian record at his local public school here in our area, just incredible athlete and and anxious, diagnosed with anxiety and it was in some ways at first I was a little perplexed because he looked like he looked like he should be on the cover of GQ Magazine. I'm dude like you have one icecool you're this unbelievable athlete, their muscles just everywhere everybody wants to date you be your friend, whatever. But we have this anxiety. So I am gently trying to address that part of it. And I shared with him some of that research out of Stanford. That was a men's basketball team. Yeah, and they had them get the sleep opportunity for 10 hours right and then the three point shooting and free throw shooting both increased by whatever the percent was 914 Whenever

Lisa L. Lewis: 35:05

9% And they had faster sprint times too and yeah was

Ned Johnson: 35:09

the one that I talked with him that that sprinting speed increase he said he would have gone from like a four 440 yard dash to like a 4.24 to six I'm like, you'd be like NFL caliber if you simply slept more so yeah, I love it. I love that you brought that up and it's it's it's nice to be able to battle but the sports with responding with but the sports absolutely why

Lisa L. Lewis: 35:32

I have a whole chapter on sports in the sleep deprived team because it really does resonate, you know, some teams are gonna care most about that some are gonna care most about that. You know, the impact on testing, you know, the other the other piece and, you know, for athletes really for any teams to do Sleep is primarily when growth hormone is released. So you know, that's what's what's so important for healing from injuries, but also for actual growth. So you think about our teens want to grow up and you know, be big and strong. Well, getting a good night's sleep actually plays a role.

Ned Johnson: 36:05

And there's that statistic, I think, our first thought piece in The Atlantic that for men who are sleeping, and this was asleep, doctors talking with all these professional athletes, and saying that if men if they were sleeping five hours of sleep, or five hours a night or less, it would decrease their testosterone level as if they had aged 11 years. And they were thinking about buying but but it was to your point that it was it was what was so significant for reaction time of do you make that steel? Do you make that save in hockey? Do do you do? So a lot there?

Lisa L. Lewis: 36:37

Yeah, sleep is so important across the board everywhere. I

Ned Johnson: 36:40

just I can't think of anything that doesn't SharePoint, as you said before, that doesn't get better with a more well rested. Can you talk for a moment about I don't even know how it's not Edina

Lisa L. Lewis: 36:50

Minnesota dynamic data. Thank

Ned Johnson: 36:53

you. I only read I didn't know how can you tell that story, because it is really something? Well,

Lisa L. Lewis: 37:00

they were the first school to change their start times. Gosh, and this goes back to the late 80s. And I actually did talk to that superintendent who's retired now about the tremendous change that he saw, he said, you could just feel it walking through the halls. So just to that point, we were talking about earlier about emotional resiliency and the ability to get along with people. And then of course, there have been studies there and elsewhere to I don't recall offhand for a diner, but some of the other schools that have changed when they go back, you know, two years after the the change, and they find that lo and behold, the kids are getting more sleep, because that's been one of the common objections that gets raised as well. If you push back start times, kids are just going to stay up later. And it's going to be a wash. And it turns out that no, that actually is not true. What happens is that kids do stay up slightly later. But they more than make up for that with the additional sleep because they're sleeping longer in the morning. So get interested data point, Cherry Creek, which is in Colorado, in the Denver area, they made this change in 2017. They changed their high school start times from 710 to 820. They went back two years later, and they found that high schoolers were getting about 45 to 50 minutes more sleep on school nights, which is huge. And then the other thing I found so interesting was they looked at teacher sleep, and lo and behold, the teachers were getting more sleep too. They were getting 22 minutes more sleep overall. So everyone was more well rested.

Ned Johnson: 38:31

And what I had read in about a Dinah is that basically everything that they measured, got better. There were fewer fights, there were less truancy, there were fewer six days, sick days, fewer suspensions, fewer expulsions, academic performance of athletic performance. And though I haven't been able to chase this down, I understand that the average LSAT score increased so much that College Board launched open an investigation to see whether they were cheating because Oh,

Lisa L. Lewis: 39:01

my goodness, yeah. Well, there you go a testament to getting a good night's sleep. Yeah. And as we were talking about earlier, it isn't just the night before, which I'm sure you you know, you can't say everyone Yes, get a good night's sleep before the test. But also, you need sleep during that whole time that you are learning because all of that makes an impact. So there is one other piece I did want to mention because we can talk a lot about school start times and that is pretty much the primary driver when you think about what is affecting our kids in terms of what time they get up in the morning is what time does school start but there's the other piece of it too because they need eight to 10 hours of sleep and so you can also work backwards from well what time does my kid need to get up and then look at well what time should they be going to bed because that can often also be kind of squeezing their sleep when kids are staying up super late. So I think that's the other advice I would have for parents and I do get into this a lot more detail in my book but I do want to just make sure that your listeners are aware that you know absolutely if your school is starting too early, get involved you know you absolutely can can hopefully help bring about change there but you can also make changes even in your own home that can help your team get more sleep. So being mindful of things like not just bed times but a wind down routine and you know the kind of Tech Best Practices which I'm sure you know the talked about in the past but there's so many other aspects and things that we can do as parents to help our teens be getting to bed at a more reasonable hour and paying attention to that piece of it. Yeah,

Ned Johnson: 40:32

I was gonna I was gonna ask you if you can fight city hall or even if you can, as you successfully did if it won't happen in time. What do we do in the in the interim? Is your advice and there is lovely because sometimes we have to work within any family has to work within the constraints of what they have. But But knowing that it's not that you're not helpless, that you're not you're not stuck with that. One of the things that I often share with kids is just the idea that okay, well, if you're supposed to have nine hours of sleep a night, and that's 63 hours, and there's 168 hours in a week, if I did my math right there, then they're 105 hours left. And what I see so often with, with particularly, really bright, really academic really striving kids, is they take on everything, and then they'll sleep with whatever is left. But a little bit like in personal finance, you try to pay yourself first, and then see how to spend the rest of your time. Curiously, knowing that if when we're more well rested back to like we're talking about with Dinah, that everything will be better. And you'll be more efficient as a learner. And I heard this that Mythbusters maybe can validate and back me up on this, and Mythbusters did a study and they showed that people could drive a car better legally intoxicated, than they could clinically sleep deprived.

Lisa L. Lewis: 41:51

I am not aware of any study that they let people drive a car when legally intoxicated. Well,

Ned Johnson: 41:56

this was a closed clubs, courses Mythbusters that, you know, anyway,

Lisa L. Lewis: 42:00

yeah. However, yes, I have read data that is essentially the equivalent that yeah, being sleep deprived. And and it depends, you know, as far as whether it's the equivalent of what what percentage of alcohol impairment, but yes, it is. And again, I have a whole chapter on drowsy driving in my book, because to your point, it is absolutely an impairment in the same way that alcohol is an impairment. Same as with sports, because it affects your response time. It affects your judgment, it affects, you know, these things that are so crucial when we are driving. The other thing is when you have not gotten enough sleep, not only are you slower to respond, and you know, decide like, you know, you're coming up to light, and it's yellow and red, and you're a teen and you're a new driver, and you're already trying to think about that. And then you're sleep deprived. So it is this double whammy when it comes to teen drivers. Yeah,

Ned Johnson: 42:49

I really appreciated that chapter because I think it's very much on every parent's radar that you know of substance use and teen driving. And frankly, teens on teens, like what's the effect of another teen in the car with me, but I think for a lot of people, they just really haven't wrap their heads around yet. The effect of of just how dangerous it is to do almost anything but particularly operating a motor vehicle while sleep deprived.

Lisa L. Lewis: 43:14

Anyone who's up at 3am, you know, doesn't matter. You can have the most perfect school start time in the world. But if you're regularly staying up till 3am, you are still sabotaging your sleep. So just getting back to that, that idea of looking at bedtimes and looking at what we can do, you know, in in our own homes, because yeah, 3am is probably not a good time for just about anything that I can think of unless you're a shift worker, you probably should be home sleeping.

Ned Johnson: 43:41

Well, I want to end with one more point. And then let's give you the last word I have one more point to make. But you know, my work is helping kids get into college and standardized tests and all of this kind of stuff. And curiously, DC parents might be horrified to know just how much of their money I take and then use to talk to kids about sleep. One quick story. And one quick point, I had a student I was working with who was a lovely young woman, very academic, very ambitious, very anxious, like is so common with kids of that ilk. She had an older brother who had the bad manners to go to an Ivy League college, he was recruited baseball players, she was probably not going to be recruited baseball players. So all this pressure, we're doing the AC T practicing here performing they're practicing here performing lower over and over and over. And the umpteenth time she's taking the AC T, we're meeting on a Sunday, I'm making the case for kind of what I thought might be the good use of her time that we can review and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I say, you know, and I'd really like to make sure that you're getting enough sleep as really wants you to be in bed by 1030. And her face falls. And I'm like, okay, okay, why? And basically, it's her friends, right? You know, her friends are I mean, she's an adolescent girl, her friends are super important to her as they should be. She didn't want to go to bed early, because she's afraid that she'd miss out on a text chain or something was important. And you know, friends would be unhappy with their blah, blah, blah. She was conscientious that way. I said, Listen, I get it. I said, but for just this one week, and I ran through some of the science. It's so well articulated in your book about how much better she'll do when she's more well rested. Maybe and you can see that she's sort of dying here because she wants both things. And I said, Would it help if your mom gave you an incentive just to help you get in bed and she's like, What do you mean? So what if your mom paid you? She said what if your mom just you know, Paige go to bed early. She's like, my mom wouldn't pay me. And I looked at her like, you've got to be kidding me. The people who may have won't give you some cash. I'm like, Okay, what if I pay? She said what? I said, What if I pay you to go to bed early? She said you won't pay me. I said Yeah, well, she said no. I said Yeah, well, she was no you I said Try me. So I said here's to do and I went after mom said units because I don't trust you and your mom's going to be the observer of this. So you hand your phone into her by 1015. And if you are in bed, and that's not quite the wine downtime that I know you advocate, but I'm negotiating with a teen and they're savvy. I said, if you're in bed lights out by 1030, I'll give you 20 bucks. She said what she said for the whole week, I said, I'll give you 20 bucks tonight. She said, No, you want to sit? Yes, well, we'll come back. And more than that. So we meet on Friday, and she'd been practicing, she needed a 32 at that time for her dream school. And she kept practicing there and then performing the 29, which is disappointing. So Friday, she rolls in and I peel off in her mom's sore, she'd been in bed, and I peel off five$20 bills. And she looks at me, like, you're insane. I know. And I give her the money. And she goes and takes the test. And, as I hoped, validate my experiment, she gets her 32 and kept some of her mother's money. And so I come at this from a performance perspective. But I think the most important thing that anyone who looks at this closely, and certainly the way that you have is this, that the most important outcome of adolescence is really helping kids develop in a healthy way the brain that will carry you into adulthood. And you talked before about prefrontal cortex, executive functions, and kind of emotionality and the glue that holds those together, the asleep in that in that the single strongest neurological marker of mental health. And I know there are a lot of people who are appreciably worried about mental health and teens. The single strongest neurological marker is the strength of the connections between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. And one of the things that completely messes that up is stress. And one of the things that strengthen those connections is deep restorative sleep. So it's not only good for mental health is good for test scores, too. So there you have it. It

Lisa L. Lewis: 47:45

is indeed and I'm just so impressed that yeah, you put your money where your mouth was, and you you did that, and it works. And I think that you, you converted her to the power of, you know, getting a good night's sleep. And

Ned Johnson: 47:58

it makes parents less annoying, actually, parents that makes children less annoying, too, because you can handle them better.

Lisa L. Lewis: 48:04

I think that's actually a perfect parting message. Because what I do often, you know, leave with is, it's so important to think about making sleep a family priority. Because it's important for our teens, as we've just talked about, it is so essential for every human so for us as adults, it helps us for us as parents, when we are parenting when we are interacting with those teens, when we've gotten a good night's sleep, we're more emotionally resilient, which definitely comes in handy when you're interacting with teenagers are teens are more emotionally resilient, they are more apt to hear us when we are raising some of these topics with them. Because you know, with a teen, it's a conversation, it's an ongoing conversation. It is not a just do this because I told you and they just go off and obediently do it. So having this long term approach that, you know, having these conversations is going to be a process and focusing on sleep, as you mentioned is the glue that holds us together helps our relationships helps us all. So making sleep a family priority.

Ned Johnson: 49:07

Beautifully said Well, thank you Lisa for joining me the book folks. We'll have it in the show notes is the sleep deprived teen Why are teenagers are so tired and how parents and schools can help them thrive. What can be more valuable than helping our teens thrive? Thanks a million for joining us, Lisa.

Lisa L. Lewis: 49:26

Thanks so much. Nab love chatting with you. And

Ned Johnson: 49:29

Matt Johnson. And this is the self driven child podcast. Hey folks, Ned here. Over the past 25 years, I've talked with 1000s of parents of high school students, parents who care deeply about their kids education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed. But these parents need to work with a team they trust will just pile on more pressure to achieve better grades and scores. This is why I started prep matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation, tutoring in college admissions planning. This podcast and my books reflect our company's philosophy and approach to helping students if you have a high school student and we'd like to talk about putting in place a plan, please get in touch with us visit our website at prep matters.com or call 301-951-0350. That's 301-951-0350 Thanks