The Self-Driven Child
Helping parents raise kids with healthy motivation and resilience in facing life's challenges. Oh, and having more fun while doing it!
The Self-Driven Child
Reimagining Education with Dr. Stuart Slavin
Hey folks, Ned here! This episode is a continuation of our eye-opening conversation with Dr. Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician, medical educator, and mental health advocate who's making waves in education reform. We dive deep into the hidden stressors in elite academic environments and explore what happens when you challenge the status quo.
In Part Two of our discussion, Stuart unpacks his groundbreaking research on high-performing high schools and reveals the sobering mental health statistics that too often go unnoticed. We also talk about real, practical solutions—from pass/fail grading to autonomy-supportive school cultures—that can drastically improve students' well-being without sacrificing academic outcomes. It's a powerful reminder that doing well and being well don't have to be at odds.
Episode Highlights:
[1:54] - Welcoming back Dr. Stuart Slavin and setting the stage for Part Two of our conversation.
[3:38] - Why it's "and," not "or": unpacking social media's role in student stress alongside deeper cultural forces.
[6:31] - Eye-opening survey data from 18 high schools revealing staggering rates of anxiety and depression.
[9:25] - Students define themselves by grades; extracurriculars are no longer fun—they're just more stress.
[11:19] - The "free day" pilot at SLU: one day off every other week led to better mental health and test scores.
[13:32] - How principles from positive psychology boosted connection, meaning, and performance.
[16:33] - Letting go of false incentives: moving from extrinsic to intrinsic motivation through pass/fail reforms.
[17:53] - Challenges schools face in shifting culture and making bold changes.
[20:06] - Stuart's upcoming parenting book: offering families a saner, science-based path to raising healthy kids.
[22:56] - It's not just the kids: how we're all part of the system that's failing them.
[25:49] - Schools must redefine what makes them "good": test scores or student wellness?
[29:22] - Practical mental health tools: meditation, breathing, and cognitive restructuring.
[33:41] - Real-life stories from students who found unexpected joy outside the Ivy League.
[35:26] - The dangers of rigid, narrow goals and the power of reframing.
[37:21] - Autonomy, connection, competence: how self-determination theory explains what students need.
[41:09] - Schools can change—if they have the courage. The research is clear, the model is ready.
[42:33] - A challenge to school leaders: want to try this? We’re in. Let’s make it happen.
Links & Resources:
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Hey, folks, Ned here, like me, you want your kids, your students, honestly, all the young people you know, to thrive, and you know how much you can help. But like me, you probably also recognize that you fall short more than you'd like to, in part because we tend to refer to old ways. We hear a great suggestion or learn a new approach, but to easily fall back into the same darn things that didn't work before, it isn't easy, which is why I'm really excited to share with you that Bill and I have a new book out this spring, the seven principles for raising a self driven child, a workbook. Our goal is to make it easier to put into practice more of the advice from our first two books, the self driven child and what do you say? Full of reflections and exercises to do yourself, with your partner and with your children, we want to help make the self driven child way your way, so that you can, more often than not, be as effective as you want to be with your kids in ways that we know you want to be if you get a chance order a copy bill, and I and your kids would be grateful.
Stuart Slavin:So while there's some progress and even some evidence that some of those schools in Ohio that they're actually start, we're starting to see some improvements in mental health, I think that we could go much farther. I think the model that we used at Saint Louis University certainly just decreasing the amount that we teach, freeing up time for students to engage in things they care about, autonomy, giving students choice. Oh, my God, they have almost no autonomy in their lives. They're so over programmed. They have so little choice. And the associations of that, you know, with poor mental health, is just evidence of that is just profound. So I'd love to see schools more, and I hope the book that in the process of writing will kind of inspire people to say, You know what, let's let's try this. Let's give it a chance.
Ned Johnson:Welcome to the self driven child podcast. I'm your host, Ned Johnson and co author with Dr William stick street of the books, the self driven child, the science and sense of giving your kids more control over their lives and what do you say? How to talk with kids to build motivation, stress, tolerance and a happy home in part one of this conversation with pediatrician researcher and medical educator Stuart Slavin, we heard about how a low cost program lowered anxiety by 75% and depression for 85% of medical students, while also increasing a sense of meaning, engagement, interpersonal connection and board scores, increasing pass rates and halving the failure rate. In the second part of our conversation, we dig into what he learned about students at high achieving high schools and end on a note of optimism, as we discussed with Janae Henry wood in an earlier episode, systems of education are made and therefore can be remade, as Stuart has shown us. Take a listen. I'm Ned Johnson, and this is the self driven child podcast. Can you talk a little bit about you've shared with us some of the studies that you've done at high achieving, highly academic schools, and you know you and Bill and I have had conversations about this, partly in response to our own work, but also in light of the enormous reaction created by Jonathan heights book, the anxious generation. And while we are, all you know, deeply respectful of the work that he's done for decades, I think we have a shared sense that it's an and not an or
Stuart Slavin:Yes, perfectly said, can you talk about, yeah, you know, it's tricky. And the surgeon general also has stated this that, you know, squarely The problem is on social media and this and and digital technology, phones, smartphones, and, you know, it's, it's hard to encapsulate in just a couple sentence, but I guess I would say what you just said is, it's it's not an or I think it's an and I think there is evidence, and concerning evidence, that that excessive use of social media and and too much time on digital devices may well be having a negative impact on anxiety and depression. We've seen a surge in anxiety and depression. I think it's really dangerous, honestly, though, to say that's the only cause of this and and what worries
Ned Johnson:me, if only we fix this, then everything will be everything's gonna be okay because your your research, I mean, your paper. This is, goes back before the cell phones were such a thing.
Stuart Slavin:Oh, absolutely. And there's there what I what I fear is going on, and I think there's some pretty strong evidence is what used to be conditions seen in, you know, primarily in very affluent communities and private and the elite public schools, you know, largely on the coasts. You know, New York and DC. And, you know, LA and San Francisco, I think, is spread widely and, and so, I mean, I've done, I've done studies now over the last six, seven years, looking at schools in California, but I've also looked at schools in Ohio and, and, you know, Missouri and, and, you know, my findings are, what I believe is going on, is this kind of ramped up, not just of academic demands, but what I'm hearing and seeing is extracurricular demands that start incredibly early. I mean, 10 or 15 years ago, the club sports scene was nothing like it is today, and I think that there's this huge pressure on parents to, like, launch your kids successfully, right? And and so what we have is a group of kids who, at an early age, are just are exhausted, sleep deprived, over pressured. And so while I think social media, you know, is potentially a factor in digital technology, it in in many ways, it can be an amplifier of this culture. You're well aware of that, the Tick Tock videos of being, you know, accepted to Harvard and, you know, and kids engaging in cyber bullying, you know, posting their scores on on exams. You know, I think it's part of a bigger cultural issue going on, which, for whatever reason, I'm not sure we're recognizing or embracing as we are this kind of social media smartphone concerns.
Bill Stixrud:Stuart, from my understanding of your work, students see it that way as well, absolutely.
Stuart Slavin:I mean, if you ask them about the big stressors in their life, it's it's it's school, it's academic achievement and and we ask them also, you know, about how much sleep they're getting, as I said, and this is consistent with other places. Every school of the 18 schools I've looked at, kids on average, are getting six and a half hours on average. So there are lots of kids getting four to five hours, which is just terrifying in many ways. And and, you know, the there the things like bullying and cy cyber bullying, those occur, but compared to the to the stresses at a population level, they they they're dwarfed by what's going on in terms of these school demands, the pursuit of perfectionism, yeah.
Ned Johnson:Can you talk about the the you did a bunch of surveys with high school students in Ohio ask him about their perception of ranking of different pressures,
Stuart Slavin:yeah, yeah, about 35 different pressures and and other potential stressors. And top 12 in every school I've looked at, all 18 schools has has been related to school and school demands, you know, now, and one we asked during the pandemic, you know, fear that a family member might get sick from from COVID That didn't crack the top 12. Oh my gosh, yeah, which is pretty social media 35 Well, social media have to be careful, because they didn't rank it as a stressor. I think I would say, yeah, it's not a stressor. It's too attractive for them. You know, it isn't that It's distressing them, but, but certainly cyber bullying was like the 30th, 32nd something like that, you know. So it may occur for individual students, but it's, it doesn't seem to be a big source of stress for them as a population. And one thing I'll add that's really important. I mean, the first few schools I looked at, would, you know, a Catholic girl school in Missouri and and a school in Northern California. The when my co researcher, my stats person, first did the analysis, he ran it three times. He ran it three times because he could not believe the outcome. You know, so So, just to put it in perspective, depression and medical students, estimated rate is 27% in the first two schools I looked at, it was 50% and 54%
Ned Johnson:these are high schools, 50 schools. Oh, my God, 50% and 54%
Stuart Slavin:and the anxiety level was a moderate to severe symptoms of anxiety was 80% and 84% so if you have a kid in those school, you know that has normal mental health, they're an outlier. I mean, this is this. I mean, people need to understand now the Ohio schools and subsequent ones were lower, but they were still far worse than medical students, far worse than medical
Bill Stixrud:students. When we spoke to students in Ohio a couple summers ago, they basically said, I am my grades and Ned, you speak to students in Bethesda,
Ned Johnson:yeah, yeah. I mean, I was, was, was, um, God, there's a local public high school here. Really good school where there's a fantastic there's AP anthropology teacher who started years ago. What? What they coined the Museum of the contemporary American teen. And they talk about just their their experience. And they do a big you know exhibit, as it were, every spring and last year's the entire thing was dedicated as a clap back. Back at heights, the anxious generation saying, you think it's just a cell phone. So I was introduced to these folks. Went in and spent the whole day talking to, I don't know, seven different classes. And the two things that stood out, one was a student who was Spanish, who had moved from Spain to here at whatever age, maybe ninth grade, and she said, Here, nobody does any of their extracurricular activities. Nobody does anything for fun, not and another kid raised her hand. She said, we put every moment of our day through the filter, through the lens of how would an admissions person at a highly selective college, think about what we're doing with our time. And so you know, to tackle point that you you made before that extracurricular activities that used to be a source of stress relief are now another source of stress, which makes me think a little bit I wanted to go back to the lot the one part of your intervention at St Louis was giving students a half a day, every every day for seven or every Friday for seven weeks, and spend that kind of however they wanted to. They could talk to your their advisor, they could talk to the mentor. They could go, you know, tell talk about this and what you perceive as the impact of that.
Stuart Slavin:Yeah, no, it was actually more expansive than that. It was, it was basically one full day every other week with no scheduled activities, right? No scheduled activities and and in the first year, they were expected to participate in electives to kind of eight week periods that didn't have to fit into that time slot. It was, you know, basically whatever they want to do three to four hours a week, that was the time commitment expected. No actually was four hours every other week, that and, and just free time and, and I should note that that we were able to compare our students after we've made all these changes to students nationally, our students reported, reported spending an hour and a half to two hours less per day in class or study than the average medical student. So they were, they were engaged in the material for that big step one exam, hundreds of hours, probably less than the average medical student, and they perform better, and they failed less often, right? And so, so, which is just stunning, again, I think when you think about it. And what was most remarkable about what they did with that time there was a student affairs Dean by the name of Greg Smith, and we worked really closely together, and we said, do something you love. Just do and don't try to pad your CV. Don't it isn't worth it. Do something you love, and when you apply for residency, this was the sweet part. They'll know it. And they want, they want people who have passion for something, who want to make a difference in this world, you know. So, so this, that's the other crazy thing about that strategy. I don't even think it's a very good strategy to get into to college, you know, so kids and parents out there get, you know, get engaged in something that you love and provide some some meaning. And I think that's maybe the greatest, one of the greatest tragedies of our current educational system is that's largely absent, you know, it's, it's, it's driven almost primarily by this kind of focus on achievement and and burnishing your resume. And it's a soulless pursuit. It's absolutely a soulless pursuit.
Ned Johnson:And if I can say the one I noted in your write up that you talked about, that program was rooted in the principles of positive psychology, which we, of course, talk about in books, and anyone who reads it is immediately a fan, but you wrote it led to improved levels of engagement, you just noted strengthen relationships with faculty and peers and and hence the enhanced their sense of meaning in their work. Yes, yeah,
Stuart Slavin:exactly I mean, and that's what I love about it is, is we kind of just got out of the students ways to know and like and try to do less less harm in some ways, and and to trust them and believing in their capacity as human beings and and so that It was lovely. I mean, it was a lovely experience for all there was a sense of something really special going on there that was just fantastic.
Bill Stixrud:As you both know, I lecture to medical students at the strish Medical School Loyola University in Chicago, once or twice a year about Transcendental Meditation, because students take as an elective. And I saw a study that was done where the students who meditated twice a day, the medical students, reported, on average, having two to five hours more productive time during the day because of the increased energy and mental alertness. And the idea that I mean seems so counterintuitive, the idea, if you. Actually allow the brain to function better, you're going to perform better. That's why I love about what you did, Stuart, was that you opt you really allowed these students to to optimize the way their brain by getting more sleepy, more involved in things they care about, yes, stuff that we know is so important for healthy brains. Yeah, it's
Stuart Slavin:absolutely true. And what I would add to that, I think is one of the things that I think many students, certainly the medical students, had, was that any time away from their studies was was kind of a risk. Any investment in their well being could come at the expense of their academic performance. And early on, we gave them the strong message, no investing in well being, whether it's meditation, whether it's exercise, whether it's doing things you love, is an investment in your performance. They don't have to be in conflict. And it's a vitally important message that you all have written about so beautifully in this what helps students in your brain, existing?
Ned Johnson:Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, it is kind of, I'm smiling at the idea that having to convince medical students or medical school faculty to take interest in healthy brains. It's a little iron, it's a little ironic, but there's that, but there's that. But what do you think helped? I mean, apart from talking to students respectfully, what do you think helped them be open to the idea of investing in their mental health and their well being as a way to do better in school? Yeah? Because it is a fear. It's a hurdle of fear to get over, right?
Stuart Slavin:Yeah, I think one of the lucky things we had was the combining them with pass, fail, you know, so we could let them go the change, you know, they had to. They could let go of chasing that score and really be motivated by what did they want to learn. They could say, I've done enough. I've learned enough and and one of the things you, you all are, I'm very aware of, is, is it shifted them more from an to intrinsic motivation rather than extrinsic. And they've been so acculturated. They were, they were superstars at extrinsic motivation. You know, they court jumpers. You got it, you got it. And so I think there was a liberating aspect of saying you don't have to worry about that at all. We'll let go. And so there were no longer false incentives. There was no end to your study if you were chasing that, you know, if you wanted to be top 10 in your class, none, right? And so we reduced that, that kind of incentivization, of this kind of mindless pursuit of stuffing information into your brain, and gave them some freedom to like, let go of that motivation to some degree.
Bill Stixrud:Stuart, are any of the high schools that you're working with where you're going into doing these studies? Are they interested in any of these kind of interventions that would make students healthier and do better?
Stuart Slavin:Yeah, I would say that yes and no. You know, the Ohio schools have been very interested. I've worked with a group called the Brain Health Network, amazing group of people who are doing probably some of the best work in terms of supporting mental health in high schools in in any kind of city in this country. And and we've collaborated. There were incredibly important collaboratives on the research I've done there. And so I think they continue to do an excellent job of of reducing stigma, making sure mental health support is there and and we've also started a couple pilot studies, but, but they're challenging to do for a number of reasons I don't want to go into, of trying to teach these, these preventive kind of, you know, cognitive restructuring skills, what I think has been hard, and I'm not sure that any of the schools I've studied have still gotten, had had, and I'll just say the word courage, because it takes courage to just to try to reduce the demands, you know, cut the homework loads. Monitor for for teachers who are administering too much homework or grading harshly intervene in those kind of ways. So, so while there's some progress and even some evidence that some of those schools in Ohio that they're actually start, we're starting to see some improvements in mental health, I think that we could go much farther. And my book will include this, is that I think the model that we used at St Louis University certainly just decreasing the amount that we teach, freeing up time for students to engage in things they care about. I mean, you both know, and we should talk about this a little bit, is autonomy giving students choice. Oh, my God, they have almost no autonomy in their lives. They're so over programmed. They have so little choice, and the associations of that, you know, with poor mental health is just evidence of that is just profound. So, so I'd love to see schools more, and I hope the book that that I'm in the process of writing will kind of STEM or inspire people to say, You know what, let's. Let's try this. Let's give it a chance.
Ned Johnson:Yeah, tell us. Tell us about this book. One and one is that, is there a working title?
Stuart Slavin:No, still in progress. A number of them being being bantied about. But it ultimately, I think, is a parenting book, because, as you both know, the way you engage with your kids around these, these, these kind of choices and and pressure and and encouragement of achievement, etc, can have a profound impact on on your child's experience and and as a pediatrician, I always said that felt that, you know, the vast majority of parents have their kids best interests in heart, but, but I don't think many have realized there's an option that, that there's another way here, folks, you know that there's you know that this enormous pressure that and demands that we our kids are facing is coming with a price. I mean, there's a quick story about a study, and you probably are aware of this two Ivy League colleges, where they asked them if they had been involved in self injurious behavior, you know, and like 20 25% something like that, said, Yes. So you get your kid into an Ivy League school, but they're cutting themselves. Like, is that? Is that really the outcome we want? So I think what this book is going to be about is there's a different way. There's a better way, and it has to involve culture that parents are creating, that schools are creating. And we need communities that are really willing to say, this is not okay. We can't do this to our kids anymore.
Ned Johnson:Well, and one of the things that I loved in the work that you did where you you to use your words, had the courage to find out things about what was going on with students under your watch, and you thought that things were going fine, and they decidedly weren't. So if I think about this school you mentioned, where 50% of kids are depressed and 80% are anxious, one of the real challenges, it seems to me, is that the difficulty for parents or kids or teachers to know that this kid's really struggling, because we tend to evaluate, you know, Ned's mental health compared to the norm. But if everybody there is anxious, how do you stand out as having anxiety? Right? I mean, I have a student, as you know, she says, No, I'm fine. I'm fine. And her dad's like, Yeah, but you do throw up before school every single day, you know? And Bill the point that he'd made some while ago, when kids learn Transcendental Meditation, not the only tool, but a pretty powerful one. For many of them, it's the first time in their lives when they experience what it feels like to be calm. Yeah, and I worry so much about children and parents and teachers, many of whom, if mankind, but if, if everyone's crazy, how do you assess? How do you assess?
Stuart Slavin:No, and that's, I think it's a really important point that that I think is worth talking about, which is, if you look at depression and anxiety in this country, to great degree, it's been medicalized. And for some it really is like it's a chemical issue and but, but the surge in depression and the surge in anxiety in recent years and and decades, this hasn't just started in the last 2010 you both know this. This has been going on probably since the 1950s to some degree. But when you have 80% or 84% of a kids with moderate to severe symptoms of anxiety, the problem isn't with a kid. Its problem was what we're doing with them. And so we need to start viewing this mental health crisis as one that that isn't really centered in the child. It's, it's what we're doing to the children that that is, is really contributing. And I have to, again, make sure it's clear there, yeah, there are some kids who are like, yeah, it's a chemical imbalance, and medications are important, and therapy is important. I don't know if there's any other mental health crisis, though, in which, in which we aren't really acknowledging this kind of threat of what we're doing to them as a primary driver of it. And I'll give you the quick example. Healthcare workers, big recognition, you know this, doctors, nurses, we have mental health crisis and healthcare and everybody recognize it's what we're doing to them. It's the conditions of the professional aspects of their job that is driving this. And what bothers me a little bit about the kind of the social media and smartphones, it feels like it's centering a lot of the blame on the kids, if you would just get off your damn phone, and it's distracting us from what we're doing doing to the kids, both at home and and in schools, related to this, excessive demands, excessive pressure.
Ned Johnson:And a little while ago, you made a point that so many teachers and administrators, they're blind to it. And I think that's exactly right, because you know the frog in the Potter or whatever, you know that this, this constant. You know inexorably more. Stressful, and we just accept it for what it is. And the other thought that always jumps to mind for me is the Robert Sapolsky observation that the most stressful thing you can experience is feeling responsible when you have a low sense of control. We interviewed a mental health advocate. She was a high school student who created a 501, c3 to address mental health in her corner of Arizona, and saying that the principal initially saying these, these are not school problems, these are family problems. And I said, respectfully, I have a feeling that he's choosing to believe that this is Ned's problem. This is Bill's kids problem. This is, you know, this is whatever. It's not a systemic problem. Because if, if if it's a systemic problem, and I'm part of creating the system, and I don't know what to do, the easier thing for me to say is, it's not. I'm not. I'm not responsible
Stuart Slavin:for this. No, it is. It's an easy default, and I kind of don't blame people for that. And just, you know what we need to recognize, yeah, this is a big culture thing. It's not just the schools, it's not just the parents. It's this ecosystem that contributing, and the kids themselves, then start are part of the creation of, it absolutely true. There's no, there's no question about that. And and, you know, I feel for the superintendents and principals. I mean, when I went to this, I think this is a common refrain, and certainly one I heard when I tried to get them to back off. You know, I was told Stuart, their their parents in my office all the time, who want more pressure, more demands, you know? And so inaction can feel, can feel safe in some ways, right? The other I'll just add to that too, I don't, I think sometimes in particular schools, this the the story you told about the kid who like, I'm fine. Kids can present as fine, so principals and superintendents may really underestimate the degree that these mental health issues are going on in their environments. And so one of the important things I'd love to see more schools do, I think it's incredibly rare. I don't know many of any researchers out there that are looking at depression or anxiety in a high school in a community, we have these national numbers, but I think people are kind of afraid. But I think that was vitally important for me. If you don't know what you're at and where things are at with your students mental health, like you have to be able to track that. I mean, we did, yeah, this mental health screening every single year, and so we were able to say, students
Ned Johnson:we don't have time to track their mental health, or too busy tracking their grades and every other aspect of their performance is just not in the bandwidth. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Doctor, you just have to step aside. We have APS to pay attention. What is wrong with you?
Stuart Slavin:When you think about these digital dashboards, it's like the only thing we're not tracking is like they don't want to know. I I think, and it's understandable. Again, I kind of, I really tried to not demonize administrators or people. I think they can be really good people in very difficult circumstances, because, you know this, oh, I moved to this community. I pay higher property taxes because of the school, the good school. And one thing I'll add there, I think parents have to start saying, is that a really good school, if, you know, if depression rates are through the roof, or you see, oh my god, there's, there's another suicide this year and another suicide the next year, and another. I mean, I think we have to start having a much more holistic view of what it means to be a good school.
Bill Stixrud:Yeah. I think the thing that that that strikes me and Ned is that the perception is, this is what's necessary. Right? Successful. There's no other way, right? And your your point, Stuart, we demonstrated there's other ways to do that by both being more sane about what we how we approach education, and also arming students with tools they can manage the stresses in their life. I ask young people routinely that I see, what do you know how to do? Either prevent being really stressed or handle it when you're really stressed. And almost always, the only thing they know how to do is avoid, you know, I play video games that they have no kind of manageable ways to unless they've been in therapy. Even though it's in therapy to often say that don't use stuff they learned there. Yeah,
Stuart Slavin:I think right. Bill, and just a quick comment, one meditation is one. And you know this like simple breathing exercises, you know, raise your parasympathetic tone, reduce your sympathetic tone, that are so easy to implement. So I think that should also be your restructuring routine. And the cognitive restructuring is also really important. And so, you know, I do think we need to give those skills. And the other thing I want to comment on is we've talked about this before, is there's this, this belief, somehow, that your kid has to get into elite, an elite, you know, selective college or their or their
Ned Johnson:highly rejected. Objective.
Stuart Slavin:That's a great term. I may use that it's good but, but that that ex that kids can most of the vast majority of the colleges in this country, they're desperate for students and will give you discounts on tuition and things like that. So this, I again, understandable economic fear like you feel, but like you better launch your kid into a successful, understood, but the idea, right, perfect, right? The idea that they have to go to one of these highly selective colleges where now these acceptance rates are like 3% at some of these places, you know, you know, it's like lottery ticket at a certain point. So we need to help people understand, no, there are great paths to success, and they don't all have to go through the IVs or Stanford or, you know, those
Ned Johnson:this, uh, this. I've for a while I have been, um, ungenerously equating the college admissions process to the most highly rejected universities as being a tad like Stephen King's book, The long walk. Do you know this? No, the movie version is coming. I cannot believe it's going to be movie version, but it's basically 100 young men enter a walk, an endurance walk, and there's one winner and there's one survivor. Yeah, yeah,
Stuart Slavin:yeah, no, there was a recent, and I'm going to forget which, I think was New York Times talking about, this is the most rejected population in history. Yeah, well, right, it's experience of rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection again. And I think, yeah, if you're always shooting for this pinnacle, that's, that's what it's going to feel like, you know,
Ned Johnson:and the cognitive reframe. And I want, I want to one other point I really want to talk about. But the the cognitive reframing, one of my favorite lines, Bill shared with me, is that most mental health is changing thinking from I have to to I want to. Of course, there are advantages from going to, you know, Princeton or Yale or Stanford. I mean, they're, I mean, the resource, They're unbelievable. I mean, everything is unbelievable, along with the mental health issues. Sorry, I had to get that in. But, and so there are advantages to going there, and the connections, and your first job and blah, blah, blah. The real problem comes when we feel, when you when you have to, right, that the only way to have a successful life is to gain admissions to a place that only accepts 3% of them. It's just, it's that can't possibly be true,
Stuart Slavin:no, and it's just such an unhealthy, dangerous way to live life, right? I mean, I remember reading an article, I think was in San Francisco Examiner. They were talking to high school students, seniors about the college pursuit, and they asked this one woman, where do you want to young woman, where do you want to go to college? And she says, Stanford. And she and they asked, well, what? What happens if you don't get in and she goes, I will never be happy. That was around, my gosh, imagine going through like your adolescence with that singular goal, and and there's a 3% chance, you're looking at populations, that you're going to achieve that, and you equate that with I will never be happy. Stunning.
Bill Stixrud:Then I both were a couple sisters. The older one very, very strong desire to get a specific Ivy League school, and went to a very prestigious school, high school in DC, and extremely stressed, lot of anxiety, mood issues, and didn't get in to the Ivy League school of her choice. And she got into a school that it's certainly, I may
Ned Johnson:say, the Ivy League school of her parents choice, but
Bill Stixrud:she got into the good but it's not a first tier talent, and she wrote her after being there for a couple of months, she wrote her younger sister and said, I'm so glad I didn't get into the cycling school. It would have been another four years of this hell. This is so much better adjusted here. It's not so much pressure. People are nice to each other. We don't see each other's competition, you know.
Ned Johnson:And, wow, so
Stuart Slavin:it's huge. And just a quick word, I know a plug, we're not well, it's not a plug for my book, but, but a chapter of my book
Unknown:is, is, plug away, my friend, plug away. You're wearing the cape. Buddy
Stuart Slavin:is. It's, it's, it's related to something called goal disruption theory, which is that we all have goals in life, and and the nature of those goals and how we kind of manage things when we either meet those goals or don't meet those goals, I'm completely predictable how much distress we may feel when a goal is not met. And this is from a researcher out in in California by the name of Jason Siegel, who is just amazing, and came up with this theory, which I just love, because I like who comes up with theories these days, you know? And so, so I got a theory we don't have time to get into. Here, you know, but, but it's a really idea, a quick, you know, thought that that having really narrow goals with dire potential impacts if you don't achieve them is a real it's a recipe for disaster. And that's what so many kids are, are having, is these distorted, kind of unrealistic goals that when, when when they're they don't meet them. They they fall apart and and it's completely predictable.
Ned Johnson:The last thing I wanted to ask about is in reading these articles that you shared that really document the kind of the why and the how, as you, as you note of these interventions for medical students at St Louis. One of the things that was for me was her wins, winds all the way through, is all the ways, directly and indirectly, that these changes, these interventions, supported autonomy. I mean, you know that when you revamp the curriculum, allowed fourth year students to do that for the exercise on cognitive reframing, that that you invited students to these rather than prescribing them so they had buy in, right? That you get 90% of people bought into it because it wasn't forced on them. That for the longitudinal projects, the learning communities there were, there are five choices, or build your own adventure, right? It's just, it's so it's so powerful and and at the conference, when we last saw one another bill and I gave the talk on why the brain craves autonomy. And my I think this was what from NIH bill that disruption dysregulated intrinsic motivation is a trans diagnostic facet of psychiatric symptomology. If I've got that right, right, real people words, right? If you don't have good or don't develop intrinsic motivation, it'll show up in anxiety, in out of Houdini and depression and substance use disorder, and, you know, self injury disorders and eating disorders and schizophrenia. It's a really big deal. And once, and I know that we're all now huge. You know, fans of self determination theory, and I was just so tickled, because, if I recall correctly, you hadn't really stumbled on that literature yet, but everything that you did and your colleagues did with these medical students supported autonomy and the principles of self determination theory,
Stuart Slavin:no question. And it's one of those things that's kind of interesting. I was, I was completely unfamiliar with self determination theory, and really only started finding out about it in the last three years. And that's how I got connected to both of you and and to me, I think it's, it's huge. And I would say the one thing I would add though, is, yeah, we, we profound increase in autonomy, you know, in terms of being able to kind of design their own program and choose with what they wanted to do. And that autonomy of being feeling like they had power over how to manage their thoughts so it didn't feel so out of control. Hugely important. The other pieces, I just want to mention, though, the other pieces of self determination theory, connectedness now they they view their their peers as as colleagues and and the explosion when we went to pass fail grading of collaborative work with with between students and and with faculty Just was was tremendous to see and sense of competence. I remember a young woman in tears in a large group session told me how grateful she was for these interventions, because we had created ways that she could feel bad better about herself, that she could feel good about herself, before it was just scores and grades and and she wasn't, you know, incredibly academically talented compared to her peers. This gave her an outlet to feel good about herself and, and it's one of those things that's, I think, is striking that I need to learn more about. My understanding is that the the video game world, the social media world, is a place where, in their virtual lives, they can find autonomy, connectedness, competence, in a way that we've eliminated from from their real, you know, lives. And I think one of the things I would add to the Jonathan Haidt kind of approach is we, I don't think we can just banish, you know, and prohibit and reduce social media and these other forms of digital technology. We have to make real life more attractive. I think it's an understandable choice that people are going into their devices because, you know, we've crowded out times for real engagement in real life, and, and, and, you know, almost eliminated choice in terms of what they they can do, what they want to do. So hugely important. And I'm glad you brought that
Ned Johnson:up such a good point. Yep. Well, I'll make this one last point and ask for your both. For you final thoughts. Yes, you know, Bill had put the question of, What can we be doing in schools, and you mentioned, you know, the cognitive reframing and the various tools. But I would submit that this place is, you note for students in medical school, we can certainly do the same thing in high school, where they have electives, they have free time. We, you know, talking with the work of Mike Nicholson and the Jennings foundation in Ohio, where bringing a half day or a day a week for self directed learning, oh, my God, to support. You know, as you described, you know, the sense of competency, the sense of autonomy, the sense of relatedness, looks to me like it has, you know, it's so it's so relatively easy, and we've seen schools all the way across the country doing this. And there was a line from one of your that I wrote down that really struck me about the success of your program. Interview, sorry, I'm looking for this. We provided students with a supportive, responsive, respectful and caring learning environment, and they flourished. I cannot see how the same should not be the goal in every educational setting.
Stuart Slavin:Yeah, yeah, it's dry. I stand by that. And it's, it's I do too. I guess we got to push together on this. I think, you know, this is something we all have a deep passion for, and I think it's that that's so much of the harm that we're doing to our kids is just completely unnecessary. It's in our control. The changes don't have to be expensive. I think they do require courage, you know, and, and, and to say, you know, in these environments where all you hear about feels like national, oh, test scores are dropping, you know, etc, etc. Like, yeah, we need some schools who are really willing to step up and and take this chance and measure it. Because I think once you once you have some schools that say, Hey, you know, we followed this model. And not only did mental health improve, look at this, our academic performance didn't suffer a whip. You know, I think that's that's
Ned Johnson:something. So, here's So, here's a question. So, so one, just to frame this with the interventions that you all did, you increased that performance. You decreased anxiety and depression by 80% and 75% or maybe got this backwards, but I'm close enough to that. Fact, you increase the engagement, the entire learning America, the culture, everything got better. The total cost was what, like, 10k
Stuart Slavin:No, 3,003k there really was 3k
Ned Johnson:what's the cost of therapy, if, for 50% of kids, if they're depressed? So, so you put this out there, we need to get a school that has the courage to do this. So here's, here's my challenge to y'all, if a school, if anyone who's a school leader listens to this and say, We're in we'll give it a try. Yeah? I'll say, at least for me, I am ready to tomorrow, to dedicate, to donate my time free. And I think you guys be willing to do this too, if we can find a school that is willing to do this, yeah? Because high school knew, high school, yeah, high school, middle school, too sure. Why not go for it like you and like the parents and the kids in your community? Yes, we want students to do well, but more importantly, we want them to be well, yeah,
Stuart Slavin:yeah. The one thing I would add to that, I would love to see that happen and and in those schools, I think the key has to be it's it's not just the intervention in the school. There's a culture issue here. Yeah, you know that that that isn't just created by the school, it's by the parents, well intended, and that that intervention has to engage them as well. They have to understand why these changes are made and how they in their own households, can support the kind of changes we're talking about. I mean, I'd love to teach parents cognitive restructuring, how to support their kids and when they hear them with distorted thoughts. You know, we don't have those skills either. So I count me in. We have a book for that,
Ned Johnson:and soon you and this, and it's in another book from you. Yeah, yeah. Well, Stuart, I I'll go back to where I started. I think the cape metaphor is not misplaced. It's such really profound work that you and your colleagues did for all those medical students. And to be I'd be curious to know how those folks are doing now that they're out in the in the in the world is practicing physicians. But even more profound, I think, than the work that you did for the for for those students, is that you really created, and you've created a program, a path that other people can follow. And it's, it's all there. And I will put these and put the link to the your articles in the show notes, so people who are interested can read about this and think about how they can bring one or all of these to your school environment, because it shouldn't. It need not. It must not be a trade off between students doing well and being well. And I think all of us agree that the most. Most important outcome of adolescence is the brain that folks are developing they carry into the adult world. And we want them to we want them to be happy and, well, yes, absolutely what parents want for their kids,
Stuart Slavin:yeah, and, yeah and, and it's fine to want them to be successful too. Yeah. Becoming successful should include not just, you know, your salary and what schools you go to and and the prestige of your profession, it should include kind of, you know, well being, happiness, fulfillment, meaning, right, yes,
Bill Stixrud:Ned and I often say that we want kids to have to take brains into adult life that are capable of enjoying their success.
Stuart Slavin:Yes, yeah, beautifully said. Now, just a shout out to you both. I mean the work you've been doing about in writing about the human brain, and that we need to pay attention to this and really think about, what can we do to launch our kids in a way that they are best, you know, able to meet the big challenges that lie ahead for for for so many so
Ned Johnson:brainless, education is not a good idea.
Bill Stixrud:Students have brains, and teachers too.
Ned Johnson:Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah.
Stuart Slavin:But last thing I'll say, though I have optimism, I think, but that's the thing. I think we can do something here. And I think there's a start of a movement that's really starting to recognize this and, and I think a lot of the schools and parents and kids haven't really realized there's another way here, folks, yeah, and I think, I think there is and, and if we can push this out and move this forward, nothing could be more gratifying than than doing
Ned Johnson:that? Well, if you're a parent or a student or a faculty member, an administrative administrator somewhere, who is interested in taking on this challenge, you've got, we're the Avengers. What are the Avengers here? The Justice League. We're all yours. We want like you. We want to help kids do well. Stuart, thanks, mill and Bill, always so fun to learn. I never get tired of talking with you guys.
Stuart Slavin:Yeah, likewise, just such a joy and pleasure. And the work you all are doing is incredibly inspiring. And yeah, we'll keep pushing. You gotta keep pushing. Thanks for the invitation. Thanks to such a joy to spend time with
Ned Johnson:people. I'm Ned Johnson, and this is the self driven child podcast. Hey folks, Ned here, over the past 25 years, I've talked to countless parents of high school age students who care deeply about their kids education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed, it can help parents to work with a team they trust won't just pile on more pressure to achieve better scores and grades. That's why I founded prep matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation and academic tutoring. This podcast and my books with my friend Bill stixrud reflect our company philosophy and approach to helping students. If you have a high school age student and would like to talk about putting a plan together, please get in touch with us. Visit our website at prep matters.com, or while your kids may only text, you might want to actually talk with a person. If so, you can reach us at 301-951-0350, or