The Self-Driven Child
Helping parents raise kids with healthy motivation and resilience in facing life's challenges. Oh, and having more fun while doing it!
The Self-Driven Child
A Teen Perspective on Teen School Phone Policies
Hey folks, Ned here. If you're anything like me, you're always curious about how the younger generation views the world we're handing them—including the phones we put in their pockets and the social platforms we love to worry about. In this episode, I sit down with two remarkable high school students, Ellie and Flair, to talk not just about screen time and school phone policies, but how they really experience technology, anxiety, education, and what it means to grow up today.
Ellie and Flair are bright, honest, and totally engaging. They bring a much-needed perspective on teen tech use, mental health, screen addiction, and the nuanced balance between connection and distraction. This isn’t a conversation about teens—it’s a conversation with them. You’ll walk away with new insight into what our kids are thinking and feeling, and hopefully, how we can better support them.
Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Welcome and an exciting announcement about the new workbook
[1:30] Ellie reflects on generational changes in parenting and tech use
[3:35] Meet our brilliant guests: Flair and Ellie
[5:16] What BCC High School is like—diversity, size, and school culture
[6:17] Launching into today’s topic: phones, social media, and school policies
[8:23] What “PMDs” are and how new rules are enforced (or not)
[10:49] Why students in advanced classes often self-regulate better
[12:03] Calling out the adult double standard in screen use
[14:05] Social media as both connection and distraction
[17:01] Doomscrolling vs. genuine engagement—mental health reflections
[18:17] The healing power of nature and how it competes with dopamine
[21:05] How overprotection in the real world may fuel under-preparation
[24:51] Discussing “The Anxious Generation” and parental fears
[27:52] Does banning phones really solve anything?
[29:11] Ellie gets real about anxiety, overdiagnosis, and support systems
[33:11] Why blanket policies don’t reflect lived experience
[36:16] Can schools craft phone policies with students, not just for them?
[40:58] On class, academic support, and how expectations shape outcomes
[45:56] Highlighting the MoCAT exhibit and teen voice in action
[48:34] Final reflections: What teens really need from adults
Links & Resources:
The Museum of the Contemporary American Teenager (MoCAT): July 2–7 on the National Mall https://festival.si.edu/2025/youth-future-culture/mocat
If this episode has helped you, remember to rate, follow, and share the Self-Driven Child Podcast. Your support helps us reach more people and create more content that makes a difference.
If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com
Hey, folks, Ned here, like me, you want your kids, your students, honestly, all the young people you know, to thrive, and you know how much you can help. But like me, you probably also recognize that you fall short more than you'd like to, in part because we tend to refer to old ways. We hear a great suggestion or learn a new approach, but to easily fall back into the same darn things that didn't work before, it isn't easy, which is why I'm really excited to share with you that Bill and I have a new book out this spring, the seven principles for raising a self driven child, a workbook. Our goal is to make it easier to put into practice more of the advice from our first two books, the self driven child and what do you say? Full of reflections and exercises to do yourself, with your partner and with your children, we want to help make the self driven child way your way, so that you can, more often than not, be as effective as you want to be with your kids in ways that we know you want to be if you get a chance order a copy bill, and I and your kids would be grateful.
Ellie:My parents talk about I was, well, when, when I was a little kid during summer, I'd leave at eight o'clock in the morning, and my parents would just hope I'm back by dinnertime. And now it's like, I mean, you have parents that give their kids phones because they're like, well, I need you to communicate. I need you to do this. I need you to do that. And I think that when you bring social media and when you bring phones into it, parents aren't in control of their kids and what they're learning and what they're looking at anymore.
Ned Johnson:Welcome to the self driven child podcast. I'm your host, Ned Johnson and co author with Dr William sticks, of the books the self driven child the science and sense of giving your kids more control over their lives, and what do you say? How to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance and a happy home. Cell phones, screen time, social media. Grown up concerns about our kids as they grow up. Like many of you, I've been interested in the evolving school policies around phones in schools for our kids, and admittedly, I have not loved everything I've seen. In Part, I do have a natural skepticism about simple solutions to complex problems, and boy is the use of phones by teens. Complex phones are not simply toys or distractions, but rather tools they will use and need to use in the adult world. And like everything in school, they need to learn how to use these too. And unless I'm missing it, of all the voices I hear weighing in about teen tech use in the public square, the ones I hear from the least are teens themselves. So I hope that, like me, you'll appreciate this conversation not about teen screen time, but a conversation with teens about screen time. I'm Ned Johnson, and this is the self driven child podcast. Well, Ellie and flair, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for those because we are on audio. For those who don't know you, are delightfully youthful and energetic and brilliant people. It's hard to see that on podcast, but because they don't know that, can you share with us a little bit? Tell us about you. Who are you? What do you? What do you? What do you? What are you into? And then we'll, we'll nerd out on some of the things that I'd like to dig into. Ellie, want to go first flare wants to go first flair. I can see we got the hands. I got it. They have a secret code here. People, all right, flair, all you. Hi. I'm
Flair:flair Doherty. I am a junior now resident senior at the dose of Chevy Chase High School. I am a volleyball player. I'm really, really into art. That's what I spend most of my time on.
Ned Johnson:What kind of art?
Flair:I make, a lot of studio art, I'm trying to get much more into paintings, just branching out from drawing, adding a lot of color to my work. This basically I hole up in my room all day.
Ned Johnson:Wow, if I have any artistic ability, it has not yet been identified. So, so I'm glad you're not going to see my art. That's very cool. It's not too late. Well, thank you our growth hashtag, growth mindset. I love that. Thank you for that. How about you? Ellie,
Ellie:hi. I'm Ellie Seiler. I am also a junior now rising senior at BCC High School. I am also into studio art. I have less time than I would like to be able to work on my art outside of school. That's okay. I love sports and team aspects. I think that it's super, super important in high school to be on some sort of team and have a community in that sense, I am going to be a captain on cheerleading. I also am hoping to be a captain on BCC, swim and dive. And I'm kind of all over the place for the spring. I'm copping in and out of different sports, and then I am one of the head coaches for my dive team in the summer at my. Four.
Ned Johnson:Oh, you guys are such a bunch of slackers. How do you have time for me? Well, so for folks who don't know, paint a little bit of a picture of Bethesda Chevy Chase High School. BCC will refer to it, paint a picture of what that looks like. It's a lot.
Ellie:It's a lot. BCC is a school of, I want to say, 2200 students. So it's not small. There's just upward of 500 in our class. It's odd because it is both. It pulls from both silver spring and Chevy Chase. So you will get people whose parents won't both went to Ivy's, and they go to like, country clubs on the weekend, which are steps away from their McMansion, and then you also get an extremely large amount of class divide in just who the school chooses to focus on. It's a huge school with a lot of diversity, not just when it comes to class and race and stuff, but also, I think that we are overall exposed to a lot just because of how big the school is, and I don't know, just being in this kind of DC bubble, I think that we are almost more aware of what can be going on outside of the world, in some senses. Well,
Ned Johnson:that provides me a really nice segue in that what I hear when you say we we have all, we have diversity, we have choices. We can have campus off lunch. There's a lot of autonomy for school, for you guys as students in schools that and school allows you to walk off campus and do these things. I also love your observation of how I don't know kind of more plugged in, more worldly, more aware you are, than if you were going to school in a different part of the world, where we're kind of fewer cross current. One of the you know, the what I was hoping to talk with you guys about today is phones and social media. And as you know, phones and social media cause a certain amount of, most of all, parental angst and adult angst. And across the country, there has been a big movement, especially this last year, to really try to restrict and control how people your age are allowed to use your phones, particularly during the school day, and how you're allowed to access or not access social media and many other things. To me, it's kind of interesting that well, how much are you guys aware of all those, those changes across the country? I know you know what's going on at MCPS.
Unknown:Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm aware of it to an extent. I have my own opinions. Obviously, we'll get into that. I do. I'm aware of the fact that it's definitely something that people are encouraging and believe that could make kind of a large difference in our generation and kind of advancing. Yeah, we're definitely aware of it. As far as it's like a really contemporary issue seems to be one of the things that it's not the only issue. There's also constant debates on like, oh, gun regulations and lockdowns, etc. There seems to be a lot of things that are points of debate, but it's definitely one of the things that gets brought up every year we'll have, like, a new cell phone policy, a new a new something, a new, what were they called this year, PMDs, personal mobile devices.
Ned Johnson:Wait, say that again. That's the personal what PMDs?
Unknown:Personal mobile devices? Oh, gosh, they would go put your PMDs away because you had kids, like, on their Apple watches or whatever, and they'd be like, wait, you, just because we say put your phones away doesn't mean you can go on your Apple Watch or your iPad like you. It's not really like that. Golly,
Ned Johnson:kids are creative. Was, was that adult generated or teen
Unknown:General? Yes, nobody says
Ned Johnson:PMD, no. It seems like STD like we're not going to talk about any of that. Oh, my goodness, sorry. That was off color. But anyway, I feel a little sarcastic and salty on behalf of people your age being talked at by people my age, but we'll come back to that. So tell me what. Tell me what. You guys had a change in the cell phone policy, the PMD policy this year. Tell me what the current policy was and is and what was new this year.
Unknown:Okay, so I don't know how much of a change it was from last year. It is basically that you are allowed to use phones, PMDs, whatever in between the times that the bell rings. So the bell rings, you're dismissed from class. You have your six minutes to get to your next class. You're allowed to use your phone for those six minutes. And I think that it also was very apparent to me I have, there were classes I take that are like advanced level and I IB classes, like I'm take when you're taking harder classes, you're learning more material that you have to pay attention to in class. I'm not going to be on my phone. I leave my phone on my desk. I don't know why I put it on my desk. I can put it in my bag too. Like I'm not on my phone because I need to pay attention in my classes. And that's. Like, a personal thing, and I find that when I'm surrounded by other kids that are taking harder level classes, they are on the same boat as me. These are all people that want to succeed for the most part. And like, I think it's also like getting to upper class when you're taking harder classes and you're like getting into different niches of what classes, what like, extra classes are you choosing to take? Again, that's where BCC comes. Like, very like, it's really awesome. How big of a school we have, because we're able to design our own schedules. In some senses. Obviously, there's not too much wiggle room. But like, you can pick what elective you go to, as long as you have all your credits. And you know, the people that are in IB bio are not going to be on their phones the whole time, because obviously, like, you have to pay attention, versus, I'm taking a French to class. You know what? Like, it's fine, but it's like, if you want us to respect you, you have to respect our time as well. We're in your class to learn. You know what I mean?
Ned Johnson:Like, it's just do as I say, not as I do, right?
Unknown:And it's just, it's, it's frustrating, and it makes you lose respect. And like, I, personally, I went out on my phone in that class. I mean, obviously, if he asked me not to, or if we were doing an assignment, I'm going to go off my phone. Kids get so much out of what they can tell their teacher expects of you. Like, if a teacher is stern with their policy, if they go, Hey, put your phone away. I don't want to see that. If they like, convey that there is something to be learned in my class, like there is something that you are missing out on. If you are on your phone, maybe somebody's going to break that, but kids are going to want to learn. And if you walk in, if you walk in there and you're like, just, you're typing on your phone like you're we're not worth your time. Why are you worth our time?
Ned Johnson:It's a really, it's really well said. You know, it's what I'm hearing. I think they're a lot of concerned parents and concerned adults generally. And I'll try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt who might have the idea that we need to lock down the cell phone use of people your age in order for you to learn and engage in classes. And what I heard from you, Ellie, is that if there are things we want to learn and engage with, then we don't, don't go on
Unknown:ourselves. Yeah, 100% and I think that's something else that is very apparent in my mind, and I find it's a it's a topic that I can get very heated about, is that adults are always like, kids shouldn't be on their phones. Kids shouldn't have social media, and adults have full range, and adults can be on their phone for as much as you want. I guarantee you, half the adults in my life have a higher screen time with social media, with not social media, than I do. And that's Oh, absolutely. And that doesn't mean that it's right. It doesn't in any way. I don't think that that's beneficial. I just think it's something interesting to notice is that the expectation is different for us, and then we are expected to listen and follow what adults are saying when adults aren't understanding or comprehending or really under like, I feel like everybody just No, I get it. My dad comes up to me and tells me about something that you saw on Twitter that makes him mad, and it's like, I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about. I deleted Tiktok off my phone because it was bad for me. I'm, like, actively working on cutting down my screen time. I'm really sorry you saw something on Twitter that made you mad. Get off of Twitter. But then it goes into the aspect of, like, the phones and social media and stuff like, it is beneficial to a certain extent, when it's used correctly, like a being able to connect with so many different people is so awesome. You just have to know the right ways to connect and the right times to connect, in a sense, like, obviously, I'm not going to be like following people on Instagram in the middle of my bio class. But that doesn't like it's a really awesome way to grow your circle and grow and open experiences. And like, social media was made for a reason, and even though it was designed to be addictive, and that's not good. Clearly, I think that there to a certain point social media was made because we want to connect more with the world around us.
Ned Johnson:There's a there's a writer named Derek Thompson who writes for The Atlantic. He's, I really like his work, and he had a line a couple three years ago where he said people treat social media like it's rat poison that if you take, you know, one bite of this, you know, it's, you know, and we're all, you're dead, you're done. He said, where it's probably more like alcohol, where it's a mild social lubricant. And for a lot of people, it's a way that helps them, you know, bond socially. You go back to, you know, beer of 10,000 years ago, or whatever. It's just that for 20% of the population, or something like that, it causes a lot of problems. And so I think that's, you know, probably most you know, adults can have, you know, socially, drink a glass of wine, and where some people need to drink a bottle every day, which gets a different a different thing. But let me ask about the addictive thing, you know. So since I'm not. Talking about alcohol to with teenagers, we know that it's addictive. I mean, I know. I mean, I'm addicted to in the same way and flair, the same way you're describing trying to put guardrails on, what do I what am I on? What am I not on, lest it take up more of my life than I want to. But we also know that adolescent brains are more vulnerable to all addictive things than our adult brains. Is that something that you guys think about, or people talk to you about at all with, where's your head around that? I mean, if I if adult says, Listen, you know Ellie, it's fine for your, you know, dad or uncle or, you know, flair for your your dad to be mad at Twitter because he's got an adult brain. He can do it every darn well once, but we just can't have a teenager doing it, because your brain is still being developed. How would you reply? I
Unknown:mean, I think to a certain extent that makes sense. Obviously, not only are we like physically, we're our brains are still developing, but mentally, we have not been through as much as every other adult like you have lived shorter. And I totally understand and acknowledge that. I think it also really depends on the kid, and I think that this is where it becomes difficult, is because every teen, and every young adult or kid for that matter, is in a different place and has gone through and been through different experiences. I know I've had my go of doom scrolling. I was in a really bad place during COVID, and I would just go on my phone and I use it as an avoidance. And now I literally get bored, like I'm on Tiktok, and I will go through like five and if I'm not seeing anything I don't like, I turn off my phone and I go and do something else. And I know that it took a lot more than just deciding I didn't want to do it anymore, or getting bored to just turn it off. And I have seen my life get better at being able to kind of different, differentiate whether or not I'm actually interested in the stuff I'm looking at, or am I just using this as a distraction? And I think that for a lot of kids, they're on.
Ned Johnson:Can I pause? Pause for one second? That's, I mean, it's a, it's a really good point. Particularly look at brain science of whether it's something that you're using it to avoid other things, or you're or you're using because you're drawn to it, because you're connecting and doing, sharing art with with flair, or you're learning how to cook, or you're watching other divers, you know, and learning, you know. I mean, whether it's it, whether it's supporting an interest or you're you're either bored or stressed enough by by real life, they're using it as an avoidant behavior. I mean, do you guys do, do notice that in
Unknown:yourself? Yes, 1,000,000% I've struggled with mental health a lot over the past couple years. I think, like a lot of people did. It got significantly worse during the pandemic. I was in sixth grade when the pandemic started, which just
Ned Johnson:the whole thing, yep, not, let's not do that again, if we can help with
Unknown:people. Oh, please. And I am currently doing so much better than I've been for about five years, which is lovely. I'm glad to hear that. And just one of the things that has helped me the most is the real world. Like going out, going outside, oh my god, going outside, like staring in a tree for 20 minutes. I'm so serious. Try staring at a tree for 20
Ned Johnson:minutes. Do you know, do you know the science on this, by the way, oh, there. Oh, this is quite, quite, quite lovely, particularly for you know, people your age and the artists as well. The Japanese call it Shinrin Yoku, which translates as forest bathing and time in nature is incredibly restorative to mental health. It's incredibly productive of creativity. It literally just looking at pictures of trees. This is great. There was a study done with them with Hopkins, where they had people take they were doing a test on a computer. One group of people then said, Hey, hang out here. Just read some magazines. We'll do part two. And in a moment, a second group was allowed to go out and kind of walk around the block was in a city environment, and a third group was quickly shepherded over to a local park and walked around without their cell phones in, you know, among the trees for 20 minutes, and there was a more than statistically significant improvement on the performance of the cognitive task that they came back to by the People who spent time in nature. So it's a really big deal. And again, especially for people your age, there's something called the default mode network, and it's what your brain does when it's not actively involved in a task. And you reflect on yourself, you reflect on the past, you project yourself in the future. And kind of think, who am I? Who do I want to be? You think about your relationships. It develops empathy. It's a really big deal. So So flair you. I'm thrilled that you picked up on that, because there's a wall of scientific evidence that supports what you just said. That
Unknown:makes complete sense to me. I definitely I noticed myself feeling so much better, feeling so much more in tune with myself, feeling so much happier, so much more. Ready to connect to the outside world. Once I spend time in nature, it just, it feels restorative, and it also feels like it's not the easiest thing to do, because the easy, the easiest thing to do is going to be to sit there and scroll on your phone because somebody else has already done all of the work of getting the dopamine ready for you, yeah? And you just have to, like, sit there and scroll your finger, and it is also so bad for
Ned Johnson:you, yeah? So let me, let me give voice to you know, parents are listening to this and saying, yes, yes, that's exactly it. We want Ellie to go swimming and hang out with her friends, right? And we want flair to go and look at trees and hug some trees, and hug her friends and look at trees with her friends, whatever. And that's we're saying, Get off your phone. You knit with go outside and be in nature. And parents saying that's why, that's why we want no phones for kids. That's why we want to have policies that get them out. Because in our household, if we don't force your kids out. They'll never go and talk with friends, and they'll never go and spend time in nature.
Unknown:Ah, how do you think this is where I start to not I start to be a little bit confused or just kind of conflicting with that aspect, where I don't necessarily think that that is parents goal. I mean, obviously the goal is for your kids to be happy at the end of the day and live a successful life. I do not think parents are able to comprehend that. Well, if you get off your phone and go do something else outside that's going to make you happier. I personally think it has to do with fragilizing kids. And I think that, have you ever read, can I say like, titles of, yeah, absolutely, coddling of the American mind, yep, yep. Such a great book. I think that he just came out with a different one, and I think it's specifically about phones. I don't know I was talking to one of my teachers about it, but parents have learned to strive to kind of control their kids and in to protect their kids, and because they want to make their kids live in one way, and don't want them to go through any type of pain at all, even though it is so, so vital to experience loss and experience hurt and to go and fall on your knees and hurt yourself so you know not to ride your bike without knee pads. You know what I mean? Like, this is things that kids learn. I mean, my parents talk about I was talking to them, and they were like, well, when when I was a little kid during summer, I'd leave at eight o'clock in the morning, and my parents would just hope I'm back by dinner time, right? And now it's like, totally right. Obviously, it's like, I mean, you have parents that give their kids phones because they're like, well, I need you to communicate. I need you to do this. I need you to do that. And I think that when you bring social media and when you bring phones into it, parents aren't in control of their kids and what they're learning and what they're looking at anymore. And I think that they unconsciously want and like, I don't think that they're truly thinking, if I take away my kids phone, then they are going to be protected from the harm in the world. But I think unconsciously, the concept is that if they have access to this scary, awful, disgusting world, and they are able to see it and, you know, and then it gets dangerous with like fake news or misinterpretation different sides of things, and so many scary things going on and becoming so much more relevant to everybody, not just, you know, adults, not just politicians, everybody that's in the US. In particular, I think that they get afraid, and it's about fear, and they want to take away the access of learning, because those kids have not been exposed yet. So it's not just like, slowly, like, getting exploring the world. It's like, you are in this bubble created by your parents, and all of a sudden you get online and you're like, What the heck happened? Like, what have I, what have I not been seeing with my entire life?
Ned Johnson:Well, yeah, and I think, you know, as a parent of two, I've 20 year olds, there are some things on the internet that you just can't unsee, right? And I know, I mean, I've read about these things in paper, and I will never go and look at those things. My curiosity isn't because I just don't want to. I can't unsee those things, right? And it's in the same way that that, you know movies, you know, there's G and PG and R and this kind of thing we probably don't have. We don't let a four year old watch this franchise, right and so. But I think there's something really interesting that you raised in there, that, if I heard this right, parents were often giving cell phones to kids so that they could keep in contact, so they could track them, so they could keep them safe, but then not so enamored when their kids could use it as a tool and a portal to see other parts of the world. So their parents are trying to this may go back to height. They're trying to over. Because, have you read that? You guys have read the anxious generation.
Unknown:I've talked about it. I've like read parts of it, but I have not read the entire book. Okay?
Ned Johnson:So you, you probably know that Jonathan height along with. Very Luc I'm not sure I got the name quite right, that were the co authors of coddling of the American mind, right, and then height with with the anxious generation. And his basic point is that in childhood, we've over protected kids in the real world and under protected them in the digital world. Would you guys subscribe to that? Do you think that's mostly
Unknown:true? What makes sense for me, obviously, not a parent, but I think that we kind of the dangers of like the real world, quote, unquote, are very known. It's very it's very tangible, and it's also something that is much easier to have a sense of control over, because your your parents can go, oh, whose house are you going over to? I want to know. I want to know, like, what neighborhood that's in. I want to know. I want to know their parents. That is something that you can have control over, that is something you have power of, okay, like, I know where I'm sending my kid. And then I think as you get older, and partially as the parent, because it's not like an infallible parent, that's just somebody who's also, like, consuming all of the news of the world and, like, who is also afraid and who wants to protect their kid. It's like, okay, the world is really bad right now, I need you to look away. Like, I don't want I don't know what could happen to you if you went there, I don't know what could happen to you, and it's scary. And then there's also the technique of just giving a kid a phone to pacify them, like, I've been I'm a babysitter, Ellie, I know you are too. Yeah. And the number of times like parents have just said to me, oh, yeah, like, No, put on an episode of this if they're acting tough, and it's just the digital buyer, right? Yeah, it's easy. And then the kids, once they get old enough, will gain some control over what they have been given, like a phone, an iPad, whatever. If you don't allow them to explore in the real world, to, like, learn what is and isn't dangerous, what can and can't hurt them. They're not going to be able to apply those lessons later in life. Like I think I said earlier in this that, like, I hole up in my room all day. That's not true. I really enjoy creating art, and I do, I do spend time in my room, because it's where I like make the best art it's where I have all my supplies. It's where I'm comfortable. I also love hanging out with my friends. I love going outside. I love playing volleyball. I've been like, going to the pool. I really try and spend so much time with my friends. And in that I've, like, met so many people. I've gotten into situations that I've learned from, both good and bad, and I just kind of feel so much more prepared for the real world than if I just, I don't know if I if I have been inside, if I have been on my
Ned Johnson:phone, right? Sometimes, some things aren't learned on Tiktok. Well, well, let me, let me go. I want to go back for a moment to cell phone policies, because, you know, Jonathan heights book, the anxious generation really struck a chord in, you know, parents, kind of across the whole country, and a lot of the cell phone the changes in cell phone policies or implementation of of new ones. I think a lot of people, a lot of that is credited to or blamed on, you know, his book, Leading adults generally, to think, if we can get, if we can get cell phones out of the hands of kids, then they won't be anxious anymore. I want to, I want to come back to that thought in just one moment. Well, now let's do that. What's your reaction to that if we can get cell phones out? Because you guys both talked about that you had struggled with mental health for a while, and I'm glad you're both doing well. You again, shiny happy. You look you both look fantastic. That's great stuff. But you and I think Ellie said, you know that you when you when you were really struggling, particularly during COVID, and this was probably most of us right, that you would sort of doom scroll for hours and hours. And there is evidence there's a pretty heavy correlation between screen use and mental health challenges. How do you guys reply when people say, you know, if he's saying, if we can get cell phones out of the hands of teenagers, this will make a really profound difference on their mental health.
Unknown:So I think it's an interesting take. One thing that I like very much live by is that every human, every teen, I mean, every person needs to experience all emotions. We all have emotions for a reason. It's just are they justified? Are they not justified? We don't want to take anxiety out of the picture. 100% we need anxiety in order to know what is fear, what can I prepare for? And how do I stay safe? How do I protect the ones that I love? Like anxiety is emotion that is made for a reason where it gets unhealthy is when it's unjustified and when it consumes you, especially as we were talking about, like, the vulnerability that kids have and the the and like this being still learning who you are and how like that social impact that can I mean, I think it can stay with some. Adults till forever, you know, like caring about what people think and stuff, and that's where it can become dangerous. But I also think that with social media, problems for mental health have been broadcasted almost and brought attention to and I think that there is a lot of almost, not necessarily, over diagnosis, but just like, every, everybody I know has an anxiety disorder, everybody that I know, not everybody, but you know what I'm saying, like, the idea is that if you fit a couple's characteristics right, you can you, you potentially, like, could need medication, you might need help. And I think that this has risen due to almost bringing mental health to social media. And what I think that people don't understand to a full extent, is that there were people that had anxiety and that weren't diagnosed with it because there was no access to know what that feeling was before phones were before phones were a thing, true, and that's what I and this is, it's something interesting, because obviously I have no idea, for a fact, you know, like, I'm never, nobody's ever going to know. But I mean, my concept is, like my the way that I think about things is just that parents want to figure out and find a reason for why their kids potentially are suffering, and then they fragilize them more by getting the diagnosis or by getting them into therapy. I think everybody could benefit from therapy. I feel like I'm kind of giving like, many sides of this, like, I'm kind of like, proud of you myself right now. It's like, I just, I have a lot of ideas, and I think that it's not that simple. I don't think that taking away bones is going to take get rid of it, and I also just don't think that it's possible. I mean, at the end of the day, especially considering how much phones and the social media and and things like that have impacted so much, and I don't think it is possible to take them out of the picture, especially for teens alone. And I think it gets complicated when it's like, you have some people where they're like, Oh, well, my mom won't let me have my phone, you know? And I think it's hard, because I gratefully give my phone away, if everybody else did too. Oh, 100%
Ned Johnson:Well, you probably know that. You probably know that from from heights work where they they asked teenagers, how much would we have to pay you to delete all your all your social media, and it was like 500 bucks. And I said, how much would we have to pay you if your friends had deleted theirs first and the typical team would pay to get rid of them? So that becomes an interesting thing, though. So, and you're right, Ellie, it is. It is not black and white. It is complicated. There are a lot of factors involved here, but you both just said that you would happily get rid of your phones if your friends got rid of your phone. Yeah. Okay, so here's the thing again, and I'm not sure that I agree with this, but I'll just articulate it that if, if that's the case, then policies that basically take cell phones out of the hands of all kids, then you're not there is might that not be a good thing if you're not having Ellie to unilaterally disarm, if we kind of take them out of, out of everyone's hands, so then you guys can spend your time, you know, in art or swimming or just hang out with your friends. Okay,
Unknown:like Ellie, this is going to be, this can be a little disjointed, because I have a lot of opinions. I think one of there is nothing, there's nothing that can be said that's like, here is the solution to anxiety. Because I don't think that's how it works. It'd
Ned Johnson:be like, we agree. We agree. Yeah, complicated, because people are yeah,
Unknown:there's 8 billion different ways to have, like, a mind process. So when you're having phones as the thing that is forbidden, like this is the thing you cannot have your phones in school, that becomes the rule that is most focused on breaking. If you spend, if you spend so much time emphasizing the thing that we cannot do, everybody's going to be thinking of how they can do it, especially when it is like especially when it's a cell phone, it's your phone,
Ned Johnson:right, right? When I was your age, there was a former president, Ronald Reagan, his wife Nancy Reagan, had the just say no. And it was the just say no to drugs, right? And of course, the war on drugs didn't work. Obviously, we should do all we can to limit the, particularly the early adoption of of drug use by by any young person. But in the same way they used to have these, they used to have these commercials for cigarettes, you know, and basically it's gonna kill you. Did It, uh, you know, and you know, and what, for many teenagers, like, Wait, that thing, it basically said, in order to immediately be perceived as a complete renegade rebel. All I got to do is smoke a cigarette. The way that they the ones that end up being effective were ones where the commercials that went out to young people were basically these things are made by a bunch of corporate fat cats who don't give a fig about you, and they're willing to ruin your health to. Enrich themselves, because most people, teens, especially, don't like to be talked down to or treated like they're idiots, right? That was more of a winning message than saying you're going to ruin your life flare if you don't give up the cigarettes, right? So, so let me ask this. And so what I, what I, what I hear in that when the policy became you're not allowed to have your phone, you're not allowed to own you're not allowed of your phone. Then, then, then teens are like, Well, watch me, right? Because, because people don't. You said this before, Ellie, you know the adults trying to control kids, and nobody likes to feel controlled. It's really stressful to experience a low sense of control. But I also heard you say that there is the ways in which too much phones use Not, not good, right? You can Doom scroll or you I'd be happier my friend, my friends and I would all be happier if collectively, we had phones set aside and we connected with each other more directly. So do you guys imagine a screen use policy or approach that meets those needs, right? That works for you and your friends, that's different than what the school is currently doing, or is what the school currently doing, okay? But it was just that it was done to you, not with you.
Unknown:I just it's so complicated, because I don't I'm trying to think, I've been thinking about this. I'm on the SGA for school wide, and this is something that has come up, and it's basically they've given it into the hands of the administration and said, Look, we're not making an MCPS rule. You just have to figure it out for your school in particular. What? What do we need to do to get the kids to put away their phones? And it's so hard, because I don't think that there is a black and white easy solution. I don't know what would work. I have no idea because, and that's where it gets hard, where it's like, having such a huge school with so many different people, you know what I mean? Like, they're going to be classrooms where you go in and there are going to be no phones out. And then they're going to be classrooms where even the teachers on their phone, and it's
Ned Johnson:Yeah, and they're going to be students who are on their phone because they're they need to be available if their mom or dad texts them,
Unknown:if they got picked or, yeah, I mean, or if there's a bomb in the school or somebody has a gun, right? What are they gonna
Ned Johnson:do? You guys have had two two lockdowns, right? You had two lockdowns this spring,
Unknown:two in two in the spring. One was like six hours, not six four. It was four. Yeah, it felt like six. We were actually, we won the same class for that. Yeah, we were actually,
Ned Johnson:oh, good times. Memory lanes. I
Unknown:remember being in that dark room for four hours in a corner. I was just great for played awards for my swim team. I was just, I gave I like, took a nap for an hour. It was, yeah, but, I mean, like, parents, this is, this is exactly where it gets complicated, because it's like, parents don't want your phones until you have to communicate with them. And there's like, I don't, I don't know,
Ned Johnson:so where you mentioned being an SGA? Were student voices involved in in making well, they're
Unknown:trying to get to school. That's the thing. They're like, asking us for our opinions. And you know what? It's hard because everybody that's on SGA is probably taking harder classes, is wanting to challenge themselves. And like I said, and I truly believe this, if you are going to be taking harder classes, if you are going to be surrounded by people and have to absorb so much more information. I mean, I think that in high school, you can go to routes, at least, from what I've observed. You can go in and you can say, I want to work hard. I want to get good grades. I want to succeed. I want to be surrounded by smarter people. And then you can go in and if you start to get bad grades, if you're having a harder time, normally, it really normally lines up with do you have mental health problems? Do you have problems at home? Do you have a stable support system? Do you have stable income? If you don't, you're probably like the concept is that they give up. They don't want to be there. They don't want to succeed. They don't believe they can succeed, for that matter. So they take the easier classes, and they don't care about the easier classes, because they're going to either go to community college or they're not going to go to college at all. I think also so much of it is how much other people are telling you can you can succeed. I am in higher classes. Mostly. I think a lot of it can be traced back to third grade, when they had me take a test. You You're good, you're special, you're special. You're smart. And they put me in a little magnet program for two years, and now I'm in a bunch of higher level classes that I would not be in otherwise, because I happened to be here in third grade, because I happened to take the test that one day, because they liked my answers. And in that program of 52 people, there were, I want to say, like three black kids. It was not diverse I am. Then when you look around at like the compositions of a lot of higher level classes, it's the same people who I've been in classes with for a while, who I've been in higher level classes with, who the teachers are, like you guys are gonna go far, and then I'll walk into other classrooms, and it's. Like, welcome to welcome to On level geometry. Welcome to resource. Welcome to resource. And it's like, Oh, of course. Like, if my teacher did not want to be there, did not want me to be if, like, didn't believe, didn't believe, that I could do well, because if I'm gonna be on this low class, obviously I'm not the smartest. I'm not the brightest. I've had conversations with my teachers about this actually, because they they'll start complaining about their young they're like, on level classes, and I'm like, okay, yeah, but they probably don't have any support. They probably can't afford a calculator, and that's why they take yours. It's not because they're trying to make you upset. It's because they literally can't. And this is where it's so apparent, and I think that this is where being at such a big, diverse school, you really see two sides of it, like you really see the privilege, the AP, the IB side, the parents that want you to do well, that are doing this. You're doing this because you want it to look good on your college applications. You're doing this, you're doing that. And then you have kids that don't care because they were taught
Ned Johnson:not to. And I would, I would, you know, from my perspective, I'll go back to a point that you've made before, about avoidance. A lot of times, students who act like they don't care, they're doing it for like, like, emotional self protection. Yeah, 100 because, you know, I mean, I have a friend who did flare back to your point about taking a test and getting this or that, enrichment, talent, gifting, talented program. I have a colleague who she did her PhD in in educational psychology, and she did it her dissertation was on academic self concept, and she found that, and this was done a few decades ago, but at that time, people's academic self concept was pegged to what reading group they were in in first grade and spelling
Unknown:group, right? Oh, my God, and it sticks with, I wasn't in the advanced. I was in the intermediate. Yep, I still can't
Ned Johnson:spell. Good news, by the way, intelligence and spelling have no correlation. Yeah, obviously, like, right, obviously. But what I but what I also hear in that, because, you know, we've been talking a lot about agency and voice and choice, you know about what was the policy? When do we get to use phones? You know what I can also, I think I'm also hearing that there are students who are relegated to classes that they may not choose 100%
Unknown:okay, I don't know a single person who's come to BCC from outside of the country who hasn't had their schedule, their grades, their classes, like their courses messed up in some kind of way. Genuinely, we're such an international school because we're so close to DC. I know so many people who've come here from outside the company, from places from like Sweden, from Thailand, from Ethiopia, and all of them have had their classes, like, messed up, wow.
Ned Johnson:And so if you're if it's too hard, you kind of back off, and if it's too easy, you don't engage, and then you go on your cell phone, huh? Or,
Unknown:or there's, like, the assumption that you need to be in the easier class, because you have these kids that don't care, and they're not going to try, and then they don't learn. And it's, I mean, when you get into high school, if you don't learn, and if you don't pay attention in algebra one, how are you going to do pre Calc? And then how are you going to go to BC, Cal? Like, you know what? I mean? It's a building block, and it's a building step, and it starts from square one. It starts from before you have phones into this before, when kids are actually you can control them, because when you're in fifth grade, if somebody tells you to put your phone away, you have to put your phone away right when. And then you get to high school, and so that's when it starts and say they didn't pay attention. Say they had, I mean, undiagnosed ADHD. So they thought that they were stupid, but they really just could not control their like thoughts or their actions, with their bodies, like there are just so many factors and it, I think it honestly all starts from the expectations that adults have and the role that adults have in your life, and how that shapes the self that this, the person that you believe that You are, because you feel
Ned Johnson:like most students have, if at your school, have adults in their lives, either inside or outside the school, who are actually curious about some of the things you're talking about. Ellie trying to really understand and when kids aren't engaging in school, why they're not engaging? Or do they just get, like, some, I
Unknown:would say, a lot don't, okay, yeah, because, because nobody wants to look into the why, nobody wants to try to figure it out. They just want the outcome and they, I mean, it's also just, it's so much work to try to figure that out. Which it is, it is a lot of work. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to me, and to who I'm talking to right now, and like, probably the people listening to this podcast. But the that's the thing, is that if you don't care about, if you don't care about something, why would you pay attention?
Ned Johnson:Let me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change directions ever so slightly and use that point that you made. You had said Ellie, that parents want the outcome, right? But they're not particularly interested in what may be below the surface. They just want you, just want kids to do well. And. That's, you know, my painting with too broad a brush that adults generally. I mean, they want students to do well, they want them to engage in school. They want them to build successful lives. But when those things aren't going well, and kids
Unknown:aren't when they're not easy, right? When it's not easy,
Ned Johnson:good point, then we're looking for solutions. But oftentimes the solutions are one size fits all, you know, just get rid of the cell phone, you know, and perhaps not enough curiosity to understand well, what's going on in Ellie's world, what's going on in Ned's world, what's going on in flares world that this. You know, there, there are many reasons why people underperform. Where I want to pivot to is, I know you both are in this class of AP anthropology with Mr. La palata. And are you both involved with the museum with Mo cat? Yes. Can you flare? Do you want to explain to listeners what mo cat is? And I'm going to end by by talking about, you know,
Unknown:I've been, I'm so good at this, okay, God, I can't wait all week. Moca is an acronym for the museum of the contemporary American teenager. It is part of a project that Mr. Lapalado is doing with the Smithsonian Museum. So the term teenager was created just over 100 years ago, and it's basically a study of how, like, that age group has shaped and been shaped by popular culture over the years, and also so much of being a teenager is being impacted by the issues of the time. Like being a teenager is has always been extremely highly contested, like we're so often held up as like, oh, the new generation isn't going anywhere, but
Ned Johnson:get off my lawn, right? Oh, yeah, of
Unknown:course. And also we have to be moral backbones of society at the same time, and also go to prom and so mo cat is an exploration of what it is actually like to be a teenager in this time and what that actually feels like. And
Ned Johnson:it's gonna be at the Smithsonian when July it's
Unknown:gonna be at the national mall with the Smithsonian July 2 to July 7. Be
Ned Johnson:there. Show up. It's free. Are you guys both gonna be there? I'll be
Unknown:further. Yes, I'll be there for a couple days. So, yes, I won't be there every day. I think I may be one day, but I'm I'm reading some of my writing. Oh, which day? I don't know which day to
Ned Johnson:try to. I can try to look like you'll have to let us know. We'll come back and do this again before you run away. Um, so for first, for those who are, anyone who lives in the DCR will be visiting the DC area and wants to attend that, I will put that in the show notes, so people can check it out, or even just check it online. I actually went to the very first mocat exhibit whenever it was in the old hotel. What I don't know was it 10 years ago. When did they first do this? Do that? 2017 2017 eight years ago? Yeah, I actually gave a talk there about our book the self driven child, and how important a sense of control is something you have both brought up before you run away. Do you have any final thoughts on things that you wish parents or teachers or administrators at schools who are trying hard to figure out how to help young people succeed, as you noted, but also how to manage technology in ways that doesn't deprive you of the ways to connect with your friends or doing art or whatever, but doesn't kind of get Carrie carried away and have you Doom scrolling, or at least having them pulling their hair out watching you on a phone all day long. Any any advice for parents. I
Unknown:mean, this is not even personalized to technology. This is in general. Nobody wants to fail in life. Nobody wants to get to to have people be disappointed in them. Nobody wants to be yelled at. Everybody is trying the best that they can in that moment, and I think that kids are not an exception to that. Kids are all learning about themselves, learning about each other, trying new things, and even if some of those things might be getting into and experimenting with substances or hanging out with the wrong group of people, or not hanging out with people at all, like they are, trying to figure out who they are and trying to control that exploration can be more damaging than parents and role models and adults think. And I think that the fragilization of the generation that's come up has made a bigger impact on everybody's outlook and intentions in life. And I think that, like, kind of just reminding yourself and like, this is for kids. I don't know if any kids listen to this podcast, but like, this is your parents first time living too they're just trying, I mean, so serious, like, they're trying to help you succeed. Because I think a lot of kids lose sight of the fact that, like, their parents don't like getting mad at them. There's just. Are right and wrong ways to go at it, but like, if you want your kids to respect you, you have to respect them, and you have to communicate with them and not yell at them, but talk with them and try to come up with a solution, because there is no way that you are going to be able to connect with them if you are not able to understand what it's like to experiment and become yourself, because everybody was a teenager at some point. Love that kids don't need control. Kids need regulation, but mostly kids need a support system. People need a support system. The person who you are raising will throughout their entire life, need a support system, and you want to try and prove to them early. Oh, I'm here for you. You can talk to me. Things aren't easy. And also, there are, there are things that I've been through that you haven't and there are things that you've been through that I haven't, try and communicate, try and share, I don't know, do your best. Oh, talk to them. Talk to them like a person. And there's no right and wrong. I think that's another thing, nothing, nothing is black and white. There are dialectics to literally every aspect of things. And I think that that's another thing is like your kid's opinion, even if they might sound crazy, there's a reason for them to have that,
Ned Johnson:I love all that people have reasons for believing what they believe. Right? Don't try to control your kids. Kids don't need to be controlled. They need a support system. And your last point, Ellie, everyone from teens to tots to adults, everyone's doing the best that they can. And everybody wants to see especially people your age. Everybody wants to have a life that's successful. Love it. Couldn't agree with you more. We don't even have to learn that from Tiktok. Great. I'm teasing you. Well, guys, thanks so much. I mean, you're both really, really thoughtful, and I really, I'm just I appreciate your insights. I from my perspective, I've spent more than 30 years working with people exactly your age, always juniors in high school. And I never get bored talking with people your age, because every time I do, I learn something, and I learned a lot here today. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Well. I hope like me, you learned something cool, a few takeaways that jump out. It seems to me that teens themselves know that it's better for them to be looking at trees than screens. They also know that tech solutions are complex. Even LA, as a student government leader, wasn't quite sure what the right thing was to do when teens are engaged in the classes and want to learn, they stay off their phones. No one has to make them, and perhaps my favorites. Nothing is black and white, and nobody wants to fail in life. Thanks for listening. I'm Ned Johnson, and this is the self driven child podcast, Ed. Hey folks, over the past 25 years, I've talked to countless parents of high school age students who care deeply about their kids education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed. It can help parents to work with a team they trust won't just pile on more pressure to achieve better scores and grades. That's why I founded prep matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation and academic tutoring. This podcast and my books with my friend Bill stixfruit reflect our company philosophy and approach to helping students. If you have a high school age student and would like to talk about putting a plan together, please get in touch with us. Visit our website, at prep matters.com, or while your kids may only text, you might want to actually talk with a person. If so, you can reach us at 301-951-0350 you.