The Self-Driven Child

School Phone Policies With An Educator Who Helped Craft Them

Ned Johnson Season 1 Episode 56

What happens when schools set boundaries on student phone use—not to punish, but to empower learning? In this episode, I sit down with Julie Yang, President of the Montgomery County, Maryland Board of Education, to explore the increasingly complex relationship between students, smartphones, and learning environments. Julie brings both personal and professional insights from her roles as an educator, board leader, and parent to help us unpack how thoughtful school policies can shape healthier, more focused, and less anxious learning experiences.

We dive into how schools are navigating the pros and cons of technology in classrooms, what research says about screen time and attention, and why policies need to be rooted in both compassion and practicality. Julie walks us through the real-life rollout of phone regulations in one of the country’s largest school systems, and the student feedback that’s reshaping how we think about tech in education. If you’re a parent, educator, or student wondering what “phone away for a better day” really looks like—this conversation’s for you.

 

Episode Highlights:

[3:44] – Why regulating phone use in schools is such a hot topic right now
 [5:18] – Montgomery County’s current phone policy and the balance between rules and student self-regulation
 [7:30] – How student phone use has evolved through the 2010s, the pandemic, and beyond
 [10:28] – The rise of screen addiction and why setting boundaries isn’t anti-tech—it’s pro-learning
 [13:26] – Including student voices: What focus groups revealed about phone policies
 [16:45] – Middle school and high school student reactions to phone-free learning environments
 [18:49] – Creative implementation strategies from different schools—no one-size-fits-all approach
 [23:34] – How to help teens develop respectful and effective phone habits
 [29:00] – Teaching students that even phones need recess—and how digital detox benefits us all
 [35:23] – Are Chromebooks and other tech tools part of the problem too?
 [38:57] – Social media, mental health, and why phones are only one piece of a bigger puzzle
 [43:45] – Final thoughts on partnership, reflection, and the importance of revisiting regulations

 

Links & Resources:

Julie's website: https://www.julieyang.org/ 

 

If this episode has helped you, remember to rate, follow, and share the Self-Driven Child Podcast. Your support helps us reach more people and create more content that makes a difference. 

If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com

Ned Johnson:

Hey, folks, Ned here, like me, you want your kids, your students, honestly, all the young people you know, to thrive, and you know how much you can help. But like me, you probably also recognize that you fall short more than you like to, in part, because we tend to refer to old ways. We hear a great suggestion or learn a new approach, but to easily fall back into the same darn things that didn't work before, it isn't easy, which is why I'm really excited to share with you that Bill and I have a new book out this spring, the seven principles for raising a self driven child, a workbook. Our goal is to make it easier to put into practice more of the advice from our first two books, the self driven child and what do you say? Full of reflections and exercises to do yourself, with your partner and with your children, we want to help make the self driven child way your way, so that you can, more often than not, be as effective as you want to be with your kids in ways that we know you want to be if you get a chance order a copy bill, and I and your kids would be grateful.

Julie Yang:

So I first, I want to get it out there is when we talking about restricting phone use in our schools. We are not being anti tech, right? It is not we are anti this technology that's in our life, right? Really talking about being pro learning, and you say, why? Now, I think they are a lot of research coming out to say, hey, you know, kids really check on their phone many times a day, right? 80 times? There's some numbers. Let's say that you know, and that you and me, let's be honest, how many times you have been sitting in zoom meetings. And then you grab your phone and you kind of

Ned Johnson:

look at it. Welcome to the self driven child podcast. I'm your host, Ned Johnson and co author with Dr William sticks, of the books, the self driven child, the science and sense of giving your kids more control over their lives. And what do you say? How to talk with kids to build motivation, stress, tolerance and a happy home. Like me, you are likely quite interested in the ongoing experiment of raising kids while limiting the impact and intrusion of technology to our families and to the young and developing brains of our kids. You likely have thoughts and questions about attempts by school systems to keep phones out of learning environments. In episode 52 we talked with two high school students to hear their perspectives on phones in schools, or, more accurately, school without phones. In today's episode, I talk with Julie Yang, President of the Board of Education in Montgomery County, Maryland, just outside Washington, DC, where Bill and I both work. It's one of those super academic, affluent places, maybe much like yours, where people are trying to figure out all the time, what are the best ways to do what's best for kids. I'm Ned Johnson, and this is the self driven child podcast. My guest today is Julie Yang. Julie is president of the Montgomery County, Maryland Board of Education. The montgomery county public school system is comprised of 211 schools, approximately 160,000 students, and is the 15th largest school system in the country. Julie's tenure on the board follows a distinguished 20 year career as an educator. She's a former classroom teacher, school instructional data analyst and college and career counselor. As a former teacher, school board president and parent, she has been at the center of policy discussions concerning cell phone access in schools. Julie, welcome to the podcast.

Julie Yang:

Oh, it's I'm glad to be here. Good morning to you. Well, thank

Ned Johnson:

you. I know you are a busy person, so we'll jump right into this. So it seems that as popular as smartphones have been for quite a while, it now feels like restrictions around smartphones, particularly in school, is, is, it's very it's a very hot topic. These days. We've seen state and local communities all across the country. You know, half of states have laws that ban or regulate the use of cell phones in school. Eight more states and District of Columbia right our neighbor right next door have made recommendations, blah, blah, blah. There's a lot of a lot of work going on there, and I do a lot of thinking behind this, because you are a veteran educator and in positions of leadership, I'd love for you to talk us through, kind of your own experiences as a board member and President of the Board of Education. How do you see this policy? How do you see this conversation you know, unfolding?

Julie Yang:

Right? So this is a great topic for discussion. And actually, earlier this year, the Board of Education actually had an open conversation with the school district, right? And I think what ended up that that's going. Going forward is the phones will be in. The phones will not will be off during instruction time. So you know that elementary school and middle school, the phones can come to school, but they don't just, they just don't need to attend the math class or the reading

Ned Johnson:

and then they get calculators or fingers if we need them, people, you don't need your phone.

Julie Yang:

And then for the high school students, we understand that there are self regulation that we can help students to develop. So the phones are allowed during transition time and lunch time. And it's also for, if I'm I'm I'm very honest, it's for logistical reasons. Our high school lunches is students are everywhere, right? So

Ned Johnson:

yeah, I should, I should point out Bethesda chevy chase for is as an example, as a school right? Almost stone's throw from my office, and they have an open lunch policy, right? So kids can wander off and go and pick up a burger or salad or wherever they want to go. So, so to your point, logistics are, are important there,

Julie Yang:

right? So, so you asked me, What is my experience as an educator with a phone? So the here, here's, I see some very distinct faces of student. Phone use is okay. So if you look at the 2010s okay and and I think I got my first cell phone during that time, and we debated whether I need one or not, right? I think doing that time it if a student has a phone, what we see is occasional texting under the desk, Mom, I'm coming. I can't come home right away. I have basketball practice. That might be it, that might be it, okay. And then I was in working in high school from the 2015 to 2019 I feel like there is always on social media kind of thing, you know, at that time, snap checks happens, right? You two become the rabbit hole, right? And so, so, a lot to watch there and then. And then group chats and Instagram, you know, pile on So, so it phone, make a distinguished change at that time from being a tool to became an identity.

Ned Johnson:

Oh, an interesting way. Yeah. Okay, yeah.

Julie Yang:

So then, then we look at the 2020s to 2022 and and that is the pandemic acceleration, right? Because they are isolated, because they are doing online schools. You know, this is very necessary for them to stay connected, right? You know, right to the world. And then after the pandemic, when I returned to the building, I do, you realize every student has a phone and they are constantly scrolling down, right? Yeah, so, so that is my personal experience, and I think very much aligned with what other educators or parents see,

Ned Johnson:

right? And can I ask whether, with their heads always down, is it your sense that they are how much of it, you know, they're still down the rabbit hole of YouTube. They're on social media and but I also suspect, and I think a lot of people have written about this, that with their distance from their peers during covid and connecting by really only connecting by phones and other digital devices, that with the heads down in the classroom, they're connecting with other people digitally, but not connecting with people in the classroom, is that part of your sense?

Julie Yang:

Yes, so, so I will give you a perfect example. After 18 months of learning online, right? Kids return to school when they came to my room during lunchtime, typically, a lot of students come to my room to seek help during life, right? But that time, during that time, the kids will come in say, I'm not here to work. Can I just sit here and they just put their head down on the table because they are feeling anxiety, social anxiety, because they are feeling exhausted. They look tired. They look anxious. And I think a phone is almost like a candy you want to chew when you or a gum you want to chew when you are looking for something to do, right? And and then, and that is their outlet. That is actually something that that helped them feel a little bit better. That's what they accustomed of doing when they were quarantined at home, right? So I do, I agree with you 100% that was what was happening.

Ned Johnson:

So a question, you know, I really appreciate that kind of picture you painted. Of, kind of how phones were used in the in the 2000 10s and the 20s, and then covid and post covid. What do you think was the I mean, there's people our age have always been concerned about, you know, the kids in their use of my Get off my lawn, kind of, kind of thinking, I'm teasing a little bit, but there are always been concerns. What's your sense of the if there is a tipping point, or was a tipping point of why? Why this kind of massive uptick in in regulation or bans phones? Why now?

Julie Yang:

Yeah, why now? Okay, so I first I want to get get it out there is when we talking about restricting phone use in our schools. We are not being anti tech, right? It is not. We are anti this technology that's in our life, right, right, right, right. Really talking about being pro learning. And you say, why now, I think they are a lot of research coming out to say, hey, you know, kids really check on their phone many times a day, right? 80 times there are some numbers. Let's say, you know, and that you and me, let's be honest, how many times you have been sitting in zoom meetings, and then you grab your phone and you kind of look at it, right?

Ned Johnson:

I've never done that. Do people do that?

Julie Yang:

If we cannot do it, how do we expect teenagers to do it? That's part of it. That's part two of it. And then also we understand that this is not say we're banning folks. This is actually just setting up some boundaries. Okay, so if we say teenagers, they are, their brain is still developing, then let's give them some tools right to to help them remain focused a little bit boundary setting. And that is so. So here is this. I always, I have some witness for food. Okay, I have to witness. And I know that fries are really not good for me, right? But if you put a plate of fries in front of me, it really is, and then say, Don't eat them. And I just feel like that. That is so mean, that's so mean. Test me, my willpower to the limit, right? So, so just remove the fries from me, right?

Ned Johnson:

Oh, and then you have one, but maybe just two. And then all of a sudden, maybe

Julie Yang:

just smell it in the air, right? Don't have it, but So, so this is, you know, phones are engineered to grab our attention, sure, yeah, that we should be engineer to help students to develop schools should be engineered to help students to develop self regulation. So let's some boundaries. So really is all these three different things. I think that's why the conversation about restricting phone use is at a rage right now, like this past session in Maryland, on our in our state assembly delegation, I think there were six bills basically looking at phone usage in school. Yeah,

Ned Johnson:

let me ask this, when these policies were being developed, who were the stakeholders who were involved in these conversations, making, making these policies? You

Julie Yang:

This is such an important question, because I have two adult children, right? I have two adult children, 124, 121, so they're very much growing up with the phone. I do

Ned Johnson:

too. I have two adult children who would probably say that they have two parents, one of whom is adult, but she's not talking with you right now. So

Julie Yang:

you know so, and they always remind me that whenever we do policies or regulations about students, we should include students in the conversation, right? So for us in terms of MCPS, this rollout actually has been some people might say it has taken us a long time to roll out, but the system actually did a pilot in several schools and then one high school and several Middle Schools, right? And then they then they say, Okay, this is what we are going to do for the whole system. And doing that process, I actually went to visit the schools and did focus groups with students. I just want to hear from students, right, what they think. So. I went to visit a local middle school called Silver Creek Middle School, and that, that is, you probably very familiar with that. And then I went to a high school called rockville High School, and I met with the teachers, I met with the administrators, and I met with the students. Okay, so I. And this is fascinating. So with the middle school students, they all say it has been good for them. It has been good for them. And one say, I realize the world doesn't end, even when I don't check on my phone, when I get on the bus, I realize the world is still there. And I'm paraphrasing what she's saying. And she said, Oh, there's an extra bonus. I said, What is the extra bonus? She said, now on the busses, it's so quiet. I said, Oh, why? Now on your bus is so quiet? She said, because everyone is checking their phone. So

Ned Johnson:

wait a second, I'm going to put together that. And something you said before. So kids are, kids are I'm being unkind. They're being deprived of their phones all day long, that sugar, right? And so then when they get on their on the school bus, it's like they're eating, you know, the entire stash of Halloween candy on on the ride home. So nobody has their their mouths are too full of them,

Julie Yang:

yeah, so it's very quiet, but that she said. I said, but do you like I wonder whether they use it even more after school? Yeah. She said, No, no, it's just on the bus. We check the bus. We check it. So then I met with the high school kids. Of course, I expected really hard pushbacks from, yeah, because, you know, they are actually, you know, go going to be adult very soon. And some of adults already, you know, they want to have more control in their life, which is wrong. We want them to have self regulations, right? So they they did say it helped them focus more in class, right? And you

Ned Johnson:

don't have that plate of pride fries right in the middle of your table, right?

Julie Yang:

Yeah, so, but they do say that, Oh, a lot of our activities are centered around phones. I said, What do you mean? She said, Oh, our club is meeting in room 123, okay, and then they send a text message to the group posted on some social media account. So they were advocating that say, Fine, I really, it really makes sense not to have it doing instructional time, but can we just check our phone during recess and doing like, right? They were really advocating. Now I Nat, I will be very honest, I actually thought we, we, maybe we don't even need it during lunchtime, right, right, right. I always feel like that. You know, when I went to visit a middle school, Kevin John, middle school, right? And during lunchtime, that's a school that's doing phone away all day, so they didn't have it. I, I, I was so impressed the kids were talking, you know, like, like the ancient art of conversation was happening, you know, like,

Ned Johnson:

like, Alchemy, like,

Julie Yang:

you know. And then I was like, This is good. This is good. So the students look up, not just scroll down. So at first, when the high school kids advocated for that, I was like, maybe the school announcement can do it. You know, I wasn't 100% convinced, but, but this is a regulation the school system actually feel like there's no way to implement it during lunch time or transition time. Let's be realistic. What what is doable, what is you? You can set a goal that's so high, but if you have no way of actually carry it out, then it it actually take away your message, right? So,

Ned Johnson:

and if you can ask, because I because my understanding is that students place their phones in pouches at the start of every class, but to do that during lunch, you'd have to have, you'd have to have, you know, 3000 phones locked up someplace, which, yeah, the

Julie Yang:

cost is, is actually, you know, will be tremendous, right, yeah. But the a lot of our schools are doing it very different ways, right? Like, for example, one of our Middle School, for example, pile Middle School, right? And they say, You know what? I don't even need to lock up your phone. I trust you, you, you can just put it in your backpack. It's out of sight, out of mind, okay? And so rockville High School was the same thing, right? It's only if you push the limit you you, you get phone out all the time. Then your teacher say, right, then I'm going to help you. Then they pouch to put your phone in the pouch. Okay? So what I really think is, I also feel like whatever policy we put in our regulations we have, there's a human factor. It to So, for example, if I am a student today, I know there was some important things I need to keep in communication with my family, right, right? You know, at this time and age, there are a lot of uncertainty in our students lives. There's some complexity, right? So I do feel this student, and I know the system will accommodate. Can approach a teacher say, Miss so and so today, because this is happening, I might need to step out and check on my phone during the class. And you know what that should be granted. That should be granted because the student have a legitimate reason right to to do so, and, and this is a communication This is being responsible, right? And being proactive, being advocate, to say, Today, because of this, I will need to step out during the class to check on my phone. You know, I think the schools can accommodate that. Yeah, for some of our kids have medical issues, like they need to check their blood sugar level or whatever it is, they should work out agreement with the teacher that out and check on it right?

Ned Johnson:

Yeah, I love that. I mean, because something you said before that in high school, especially, these are young adults or near adults. And while you know, a toddler has no business having a phone and iPad or anything else, you know when you're 1617, 18, then 20 and go on and you know, these are incredibly powerful and important technologies, not just for learning, but for communication, all the things you mentioned. And so it strikes it's always struck me and struck us, that part of our job is to help young people learn to use effectively that technology and in way that you that you just know that's respectful, you know. So if you and I are having a conversation and I get a text on my phone, so I'm so sorry, excuse me, but that's my daughter reaching out. She's at a appointment. I just need to make sure that she's okay. Do you mind? Right then? Then, you know, because this is what you know, perfect world. This is what grown ups are doing.

Julie Yang:

Well, I do think that for decades that the school has functioned without phones, right? And the communication between families and the students is through the school's front office, right? Other adults in the building now we do have phone as a very convenient means of communication, yeah, while we say primary, you should use the school front office, but there are sometimes situations students might need to tend to then we should make that exception and teach them how to be responsible users, right? So, you know, so that, I think what we try to do with the phone policy is we are not reacting to an app or a moment students life. We are responding to a culture shift in our society and and we are trying to help our students to say, technology is wonderful powerful, but focus is also powerful. I love that, so let's work on this together. Yeah,

Ned Johnson:

I love I was saw something on social media, of all things, by Lisa demora, if you know her, but motion life of teens and untangled. She's just a brilliant thinker and writer. And she talked about, you know, the importance for having well thought out restrictions and regulations around phones and social media especially. But she made the point that really the most important thing for young people is the strength of the connections they have with the adults who are in their lives. And that when we work to protect kids against from the, you know, the plate of fries or the or too much time on their phone, we want to make sure that we do in a way that doesn't undermine their relationship with the concerned adults around them, right? So I want to go, I want to go back for just a moment. Were students part of making this policy, or did adults really make it? And then, if it is just it was driven. How were students, you know, were State students able to give feedback? What kind of feedback have you gotten? Particularly thought, I'm really kind of most interested the high school level, because, from my perspective, the 10 year old just doesn't need, doesn't need a smartphone, right? But a 17 year old probably has reasons for it.

Julie Yang:

So this is a great question. I will say this, this regulation is adult driven and afterwards, and also because it's a regulation. And it's not a policy. It also, once it was revised, it didn't have a community feedback period. So, so this is the distinction. So the Board of Education does policies, and when we amend any policy or or draft a new policy, you always have a community feedback period, okay for people to give their input. Now, because this is a regulation, and regulation, meaning it doesn't take a board vote, but board member is heavily, you know, provide feedback, guidance and all that, but it does not require a 30 minute public comment. So doing this process, I'm sure when the school system is doing the pilot, it has collected a lot of student feedback. It is did have student participation, however, for the rollout, for the regulation rollout. It didn't have student participation, you know, for feedback. Okay, so, and that is actually one thing I'm looking at. I'm the chair of the policy committee on the board of education, and this is one thing I want to discuss with my colleagues on the committee that even with regulations, we should have a public feedback period right. Another regulation will be like grading or reporting. Another regulation will be like Student Code of Conduct. And so I think it's very important to have public feedback against public concerns, right, and suggestions. So that will be one thing we I would like to do in the fall with my

Ned Johnson:

company member. You know, I appreciate that. I feel quite strongly that we're much more likely as both as educators and as parents, to get buy in from our kids if they are allowed to contribute. And it doesn't mean that they say no and we say, okay. You know, most things probably involve some healthy negotiation. And it strikes me one one to get their buy in, but to go back to that treating them respectfully as the adults or near adults that they are. I'll say that when Bill and I lecture around our books, whenever I talk with high school group of high school students, I always ask this question, right? How many of you feel like you're on your cell phone too much, and predictably, it's about 85% of kids who raise their hands. Wow. Here's the interesting follow up question, how many of you feel like you're on your cell phones more than you want to be? And the same percent goes up, right? So if we go back to you and the fry analogy, right? If I say, Well, Julie, you're not allowed to have fries because they're just not good for you and did it up, there's a decent chance that's going to make you want to, like, run down to smash burger, five guys, whatever, McDonald's, just start stuffing in your face, because I just told you that you can't, as opposed to, you know, I know how much you love fries. I also know I'm like this with donuts. I also know that, you know, it can be easy to sometimes eat more than you wish you liked everyone, but in hindsight, you weren't so happy with it, right? So, you know, I think it'd be great for us to talk about, how can you, you know, have access to your phone in times when you really need it, and just the ways that you, I think the policy as I understand, or the, excuse me, the regulations, is I understand from You seem really balanced. My My feeling is that, and I'm hoping, I'm be curious to see how this plays out for you in the fall, that the more we can talk respectfully with kids about this, the more likely they're to get by and Because oftentimes, kids will resist what's in their own best interest simply because it was, it was forced upon them, you know,

Julie Yang:

right, right, right? And also that's part of the human nature as as they become adults, right, the process of establishing my own person, right? Right? Yeah, so

Ned Johnson:

that's it's interesting. You know me, so my my writing partner, Bill sticks shirt, is a clinical neuropsychologist, and he says we remind ourselves that the two that really the two foundational goals of adolescence are to one, connect with people outside of your own family, and two, to develop independence, right? And we really thwart those at at their peril and our peril. And so, you know, phones are so often the ways that a lot of young people do connect with other people. And to your point, we want to help them learn to manage those technologies. You know, arguably with our support, but doing it with them, not to them, I

Julie Yang:

guess. Yeah, right. So, so it is like, I. Say that you know what, your phone deserve to have recess to

Ned Johnson:

your phone deserves downtime.

Julie Yang:

Yes, yes. So the math class is your phone's downtime, right? Yeah,

Ned Johnson:

I tell you I had a I was, I just came back from vacation, and my wife and I was long story, sort of, you know, a bus to a canoe to a walk to another canoe, like, you know, this lake, it was like way far out there. We stayed in this little cabin, and there was no connectivity. I'm the world, to your point, like that middle school girl on the bus. You know, the world could have ended, and I would not have known about it for three days, because there was no possibility of my connecting. And it was just great, because I couldn't, I couldn't be distracted by my phone if I'd wanted to, right? So my attention was so much more with my wife, with the surroundings, with the other people who are with us. So I was just talking with a, I guess she's a rising junior here in my office, and they're headed off to, I don't know, somewhere Nantucket or Cape Cod on someplace by the ocean, for like, a week's vacation. And I asked her, I said, Do you imagine that there are times, I was asking her, what do you like? And blah, blah, blah, I said, but I said, Do you imagine there are times during the week when you could be off your phone and lock it up or whatever? And I told her about my experience, right? And she said, Yeah, I think there, I think there, there are, right? And this goes back to Lisa Moore's point about we don't want it to be adults versus kids when it comes around technology. We want it to be adults with kids against the technologists, right?

Julie Yang:

And I often I like that. So I often think that if I have to do a task at hand, okay, and I feel my phone is like the pop up ads 100% right, because I'm working on the paper, I'm working on a policy issue, or I'm and then right, right, ding, ding, ding, ding. And it, it takes me tremendous willpower to not to look at it. And also, if I happen to look at it, it takes me tremendous time to refocus, because I was immersed in this, in this work. So, so, so your experience of completely go off grid for three days, you probably feel that you are very much with your own person, your being, your nature and your being right without, oh,

Ned Johnson:

100% it made me a better husband, maybe not a good husband, but better than I was. Yeah,

Julie Yang:

I hope your wife is listening to this, getting a lot of points today.

Ned Johnson:

I think she's taking right now to her,

Julie Yang:

yeah, but I think I'm glad we're having this conversation. I really agree 100% we need to do it with our kids. But you also know that our thing is not that we are against this technology, banning the forms. We're just setting up boundaries so that we can be more productive learners doing instruction. Yeah,

Ned Johnson:

I love what you said about we're not anti tech. We're pro learning, you know, and that deep engagement is so important. You probably know some of the work of Cal Newport about deep work. I mean, just brilliant, brilliant stuff. And I do sometimes wonder, you know you and I can remember our lives, pre internet, pre foam, pre blah, blah, blah, blah, and now we know how we have to, kind of ourselves, fight to sort of box out the technology. But for students today, how many of them, maybe almost have no memory or sense of what their own thoughts can be, what their own thoughts can be what their own experience can be when they're not constantly bombarded by technology. I have to ask one question, by the way, when I had the chance to come over to one of the schools here in montgomery county and talk with I went like seven different classes talking with high school juniors. The last podcast we had Ellie and flair talking about this. I was in there one of their classes talking to me about this, and we focus on the phone the phone the phone the phone. But I also know that 1520, years ago, we thought that what we really need to do to improve learning for all students is make sure that they have Chromebooks and the technology that comes along with this. Now my much better. Half she hiking right now is a Latin teacher, a Latin teacher. And I'm thinking, How is it possibly, how is it credible at all that this person who's teaching about 2000 year old dead language needs a Chromebook to make that happen? And so I asked these kids. I said, How many. The apps or programs do you have to access that are surrounded school, and they are, they numerated them. And I sadly don't have this in my fingertips, and if I recall, there were no fewer than 11 separate apps portals, whatever they need. I thought, My goodness, right? Yeah, so,

Julie Yang:

Nat, is that your next battle? Do another whole podcast on ad in school. So I grew up in the 1970s of China, when there was no technology existed. I didn't even have TV, right? So I I didn't have a TV until the 80s,

Ned Johnson:

and my brain goes and look at you now, look, it's possible to

Julie Yang:

the 80s, right? Yeah, you understand that we are at a different time and space and technology can enhance a lot of our learning. But we do need to think about how much At what age and in what ways,

Ned Johnson:

how how much At what age and in what ways. I love that

Julie Yang:

three, three podcasts I just laid out, this is

Ned Johnson:

gonna be amazing. I mean, yeah. And that's, you know, and I think that's such an important point, you know. And certainly, you know, Jonathan Haidt talks about this in his book, The anxious generation. I'm good friends with a woman named Devorah heidner, who wrote books called Screen wise and growing up in public, and makes very similar points. Why? And part of it, it strikes me that this is this constant, ongoing conversation that there's certain ages where it's like, Nope, you don't, you don't have on phone because you're four, right? You don't have, you know. But as they you know, progress all these things, because most people, unless they're going to be Amish, are going to have technology as part of their lives. You know, the delay, delay, delay in doing this in a very, very thoughtful and purposeful way, but it's, you know, but those are hard, you know? Those are not easy. Conversations always to have with kids. We

Julie Yang:

can talk about right in the future, right? Yeah, future schooling look like

Ned Johnson:

deep engagement would be great. Let me ask. I have a couple more questions. One part of the reason I got to this conversation with you because I got to the conversation with Blair and Ellie flair and Ellie because I got to the conversation at a local school was, as you know, there's a local school that has some of the Museum of the contemporary American teen, right? And they do all this work where young people create murals and presentations and do deep thinking about and sharing with people not their age, what it feels like to be their age. And last year's thing was all kind of a clap back against Jonathan heights book, the anxious generation and, you know, and the I like a lot of the work, but I think in in the popular consensus, it's been distilled down to one thing, if we get kids off social media, everything will be right in the world. And I think the young people had some strong feelings about that, that they really feeling that adults are pretty quick to blame, that everything with mental health issues are about social media. And I think it's an important part of it, but it's part of it. I mean, you know that mental health issues, you know, Mean Gene 20, who did this work, that kids in the early 2000s were five to eight times more likely to endure symptoms of anxiety and depression than people that then, then people who were, who were meant, who are patients in a psychiatric hospital in the 50s. And this was before kids had smartphones, right? You know what's you know, as an educator and as either the board, board of the President of the Board of Education, in addition to what's your feeling about social media is a slice of the pie and some of the other things that schools should be thinking about around mental health and kids growing up, you know, healthy,

Julie Yang:

yeah. And, you know, I think you asked a great question. And cell phone are not the sole cause of the Youth Mental Health Crisis, right? And also, like banning them, doing instructional time is also not a magical fix, a magic right? Mental health is deeply complex. You already mentioned many things, right? That happen, exists pre fall, right? It is shaped by trauma, as I can think, academic pressures, social dynamics, family challenges, right? And as an immigrant, maybe identity developments, right, so much and so much more right and so. But phones are part of that equation, the constant notifications, the social media comparisons, the group chat drama. Us, you know, in the cyber bullying are all very well documented contributors to these enzyme impression in teams. So, so what I'm saying is that I'm not blaming phone for the sole cause, right, but I would say, but they are part of that environment, right? So they're part of that environment, which we want to have some control over during a school day. So here are some other things we really need to

Ned Johnson:

do. Can I jump in really quickly before you do that? You the point about, about, you know, cell phone or texting drama and cyber bullying. You know, it strikes me that drama is part of particularly the middle school experience, right? And kids need to learn to navigate that. It's it strikes me and, you know? And so I think for parents who think, well, if we got rid of cell phone and texting, you wouldn't have this drama, well, that's not true at all. It strikes me that one the challenge that cell phones create is there's a permanence to it, because there's a record in ways that if I say something wrong to you, there's not a record that can get passed around. And it strikes me that technology is such an accelerant, where things that are conversations, there's because they take longer to go back and forth. There's more time for reflection, you know, to sleep on it, where things get pretty, you know, hairy in a hurry, where we can just fire off an angry

Julie Yang:

tech little school. Dramas is universal, a universal, a universal, yes, but what is different now is that drama can be recorded, right, documented, right, and play again and again, and go to places and and for, for go to places, spaces, people. That in the past was pretty restricted among right, it can be only two people, but now it's hundreds of people are involved. And I'm sorry if you put something on display, is it possible people would dig in their heels a little bit more?

Ned Johnson:

Yeah, I saw T shirts a while ago that said 19 days, all those experiences, no digital evidence.

Julie Yang:

Oh. Right, you know, or to have that

Ned Johnson:

no, because, I mean, you know, to your point about, you know about being an immigrant and identity formation, well, that really is the work of adolescence, of who am I and how I'm going to show up. And so, you know, I am kind of grateful that some of the pictures that you know, could have been taken to be with some really dubious sartorial choices. There is no digital evidence in my head. I'm horrified by what I chose to wear. But no one, you know, I don't have to, I don't have to be revisited by, uh, you know, the ghost of clothing past.

Julie Yang:

So, so really, schools do need to have other mental health support, right and like, have wellness space, have social emotional learning curriculum, you know, create stronger adult or student relationships. These are all important things for the well being of our student and the culture of our schools. So so here I'm I'm going to say it. This is not about scapegoating, okay, it really is about boundary setting so the kids can breathe, focus and recover a little bit from the 24/7 pressure that you you get from the phone if you let it, if you let

Ned Johnson:

it, hmm, boy, that's well said. Well said, before I run away from you, do you have to final thoughts of, you know, again, as someone who's both a parent and an educator and a leading voice in in, in trying to craft regulations around this, are there final things that you think parents you'd want parents and caregivers to know, or students who weren't part of the conversation, things that you'd want them to know that maybe they don't know yet, right?

Julie Yang:

So for I think some final thoughts, okay, I think banning phones, I want to tell all the students, it's not about punishment. It's not because they did something wrong right now it's taken away. We, so much of our culture is, is this, you do something wrong, I'm gonna take away something from right? It's not it. It is we? What we are trying to do is about protection, of focus, of relationship and of deep learning. So and I want every student to to leave the school to be a little bit more ready for the world, you know, and and then they'll get

Ned Johnson:

practice with their phone outside of school.

Julie Yang:

Yeah, and also, this is what I'm going to say. We have the best intention in the world to put, anytime we put a new regulation or new policy up, we have the best intention in the world we would like to think so right, in practice. So this is where they can help us in practice. How is it going? Is it doing? What is supposed to meant to do, right? What are some things we can improve and or what are some things that maybe we can add or to it, or, you know, whatever? So I'm asking for partnership. Now, it's a it's an enormously big County, 160,000 families, right, and students, and so we do want to see that this is people can see this is a measure reasonable and helpful thing to do in the school, so I think in the fall, and maybe we give it a try a semester. And there should be time that we will have another open conversation, again to say, how is it going? How are we doing with this? So we need to look back and not just say, this is this. Is it? We're done. Put it away. You know, I think we it will worth another discussion to reveal it and look at it again. So I would love to go back in the spring and do student focus group again, to say, tell me, right. And I will go to the school that that are not, that were not in our pilot program. Go, yeah, trying this for new and I'm going to go to ask them, say, tell me, how is it going, right? Yeah,

Ned Johnson:

yeah, I will tell you I was so struck. I mean, look, I've spent almost 35 years working one on one with teenagers, and I'm just forever, just, and I don't even know why I continue to be surprised, but I'm constantly surprised by just how thoughtful and insightful these young people are. And it's, you know, I am really glad that you are have been part of crafting policies that I that I think are done in a in a very thoughtful way for what's best for kids. And I'm really looking forward to your having conversations with them. Because for kids who don't understand this yet, I think the why of it matters a lot. And if there are, you know, because, as you point out, this is a regulation, and you we constantly revisit them, having those student voices there, I think are really important. And I would say most of all, for families at home, because you, you know, you will no longer have a 12 year old. You have a 13 year old. You no longer have a 13 year old. You don't have a 13 or I have a 17 year old. And regulations change because children change

Julie Yang:

so so partnership is important.

Ned Johnson:

Partnership is important. I love that well. Julian, thank you so much for this conversation. I really it has been great. I really appreciate it.

Julie Yang:

Pleasure talking to you.

Ned Johnson:

Hey, folks. Over the past 25 years, I've talked to countless parents of high school age students who care deeply about their kids education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed. It can help parents to work with a team they trust won't just pile on more pressure to achieve better scores and grades. That's why I founded prep matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation and academic tutoring. This podcast and my books with my friend Bill stixrud reflect our company philosophy and approach to helping students. If you have a high school age student and would like to talk about putting a plan together. Please get in touch with us. Visit our website, at prep matters.com, or while your kids may only text, you might want to actually talk with a person. If so, you can reach us at 301-951-0350, you.