Teens Talk: Teen Takeovers and Third Spaces

What do teens really need to grow into confident, capable adults? In this episode, I sit down with two remarkable young advocates—Rona Majumder and Faris Smith—to explore why today's teens are asking for more autonomy, more trust, and more places where they can simply exist. Together, we unpack the growing conversation around "third spaces," teen gatherings, social media, and what adults often misunderstand about adolescent development.

We also discuss why teen "takeovers" are making headlines, how parental anxiety can unintentionally limit healthy growth, and what schools, parents, and policymakers can do to create safer, more supportive environments without over-controlling young people. If you've ever wondered how to better support the teens in your life, this conversation offers thoughtful perspectives you won't want to miss.

Episode Highlights

[0:00] - Introducing The Seven Principles for Raising a Self-Driven Child Workbook and why putting ideas into practice matters.

[1:40] - Meet teen advocates Rona Majumder and Faris Smith and hear why third spaces matter so much to young people.

[3:59] - What exactly is a "third space," and why today's teens feel they're disappearing.

[10:18] - Why teens crave more independence, trust, and the freedom to simply exist without constant supervision.

[15:04] - Navigating the difficult transition as parents gradually hand over responsibility and independence.

[21:05] - Teen takeovers: what's really driving them, and why punishment alone won't solve the problem.

[23:33] - The role of consumerism, disappearing community spaces, and the need for free places where teens can gather.

[26:57] - Rona and Faris share firsthand experiences attending teen gatherings and discuss the social skills young people need to navigate them safely.

[33:18] - Social media: connection, FOMO, and whether it has become today's version of a third space.

[40:29] - Would teens choose to erase social media if they could? The surprising answer.

[43:27] - Practical advice for parents: reduce surveillance, build trust, and avoid parenting from anxiety.

[45:11] - How schools can foster student agency by creating opportunities that are truly student-led.

[47:00] - What policymakers should do to better include teen voices and invest in meaningful community spaces.

[49:13] - Why today's generation may be uniquely equipped to handle tomorrow's biggest challenges.

Links & Resources

Danah Boyd: It’s Complicated, the Social Lives of Networked Teens

Ned Johnson article in The Washington Post, March 2, 2020: How we can help kids increase their sense of control as the coronavirus approaches

If this episode has helped you, remember to rate, follow, and share the Self-Driven Child Podcast. Your support helps us reach more people and create more content that makes a difference. 

If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com

Transcript

Ned Johnson: 0:00

Hey, folks. Ned here. Like me, you want your kids, your students, honestly, all the young people you know, to thrive, and you know how much you can help. But like me, you probably also recognize that you fall short more than you like to, in part because we tend to revert to old ways. We hear a great suggestion, or learn a new approach, but to easily fall back into the same darn things that didn't work before. It isn't easy, which is why I'm really excited to share with you that Bill and I have a new book out this spring, the Seven Principles for Raising a Self-Driven Child, a workbook. Our goal is to make it easier to put into practice more of the advice from our first two books,*The Self-Driven Child* and*What Do You Say* full of reflections and exercises to do yourself, with your partner, and with your children. We want to help make the self-driven child way your way, so that you can more often than not be as effective as you want to be with your kids in ways that we know you want to be. If you get a chance, order a copy. Bill and I, and your kids, would be grateful.

Rona Majumder: 1:08

I think the way that we're being shaped right now, the way we're kind of adapting to the world, is very different from past generations, and there are a lot of skills I feel like we've had to build. Generations haven't, and I think that can give a sense of optimism because we are resourceful and like able to adapt. We we grew up in a pandemic was part of like a big our childhood, and so we know how to respond to challenges. And I think that's going to be a really useful skill for us as we grow into adults.

Ned Johnson: 1:40

Welcome to the Self-Driven Child podcast. I'm your host Ned Johnson and co-author with Dr. William Stixjuv of the books *The Self-Driven Child: The Science and Sense of Giving Your Kids More Control Over Their Lives*

and *What Do You Say: 1:53

How to Talk with Kids to Build Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home* Stories about teen takeovers are, well, taking over the news this summer. With the help of social media, teens, sometimes in the 1000s, are planning spontaneous meetups in large public spaces and town centers. These takeovers have led to calls for curfews for the teens and fines for their parents, teens themselves are pushing back and calling out the lack of third spaces for teens. In today's podcast, we speak with two teens, Ferris Smith and Runa Majumder, about the factors leading to teen takeovers, the lack of third spaces, and what parents and policymakers can do to punish less and promote more safe and healthy, and dare we even say it, screen-free socializing. I'm Ned Johnson, and this is the Self-Diven Child Podcast. So we often talk about teens in third spaces, but it struck me that maybe be a solid idiot to perhaps talk with teens about third spaces. So I'm delighted to have today with me two remarkably thoughtful young people to talk about these complicated issues with me. You guys want to introduce yourselves?

Rona Majumder: 3:13

Hi, I'm Rona Majumder, and I'm a junior in high school, and I do a lot of work on promoting teen autonomy and advocating for more third spaces and spaces for teens.

Faris Smith: 3:27

I'm Ferris Smith. I am a rising freshman at Rutgers University, majoring in sociology, and yeah, try to do just a ton of equity work with teens of color.

Ned Johnson: 3:40

Love all of that. So let's kick this off because some people may not have a clear idea of what third spaces are. To the degree that you guys think about this in your own heads or talk about this with you know old people like me trying to advocate for, how would you describe third spaces at least from the teenage perspective?

Faris Smith: 3:59

I would say a third space is, out well. Of course, by definition, it's outside of school. It's outside of work. It's a place where you can just exist. And for me, a third space, I think, is just a place where I can connect with my friends, and I don't really have any obligations to anybody.

Ned Johnson: 4:19

Hmm. I love it. Connect with friends, and no obligations to other people. So you're not you're not in that space to check a box to make your you know what your teachers want or parents want or coaches want. It's really just for you and what matters to you and the people you're with.

Rona Majumder: 4:36

To me, like the success of a third space is the lack of hierarchies and kind of there's no like you said obligations. You're able to just coexist with people your age without feeling pressured into anything or feeling like you have to be there.

Ned Johnson: 4:53

Let me ask you this: When I was your age, and I'm of course 115 years old now, so it's been a while. What we today think of as extracurricular activities, we thought about them the same way then. It seems to me that a lot of the outlets that kids might have, that teens might have outside of school and home, are more and more populated by well, to your words, Ronick hierarchy. So that there's almost always some other adult involved that we don't really allow you know teen run sports teams or teen run robotics teams or debate teams that everything everybody needs to have an advisor or a manager a boss or someone who's somehow in charge there is that been your experience

Rona Majumder: 5:38

yeah I feel like it's been increasing kind of the adult presence in teen efforts. Like even if they try and create an event that feels like it's teen driven, there will be adults kind of in the corner or watching over, making sure you don't get into trouble. Which it's valid for them not to want us to get into trouble, but I feel like that making mistakes is kind of part of what builds character, right? Everything is very surveilled, and it's to the point where, like, it's no longer. I feel like that-that's what takes the third space out of it. If it's surveilled by you know this older person, whatever adult, it's not really met solely for teens.

Ned Johnson: 6:22

Yeah, but when I hear that idea of we don't want young people to get into trouble, and to your point, Ronick, this is how we learn. It strikes me that one of the most important tools for any of us at any age to develop is the ability to solve problems, right? To get ourselves out of trouble, and it seems that I don't know. Perhaps to develop the tools to get yourself out of trouble, you first kind of have to get into trouble a little bit, right?

Rona Majumder: 6:47

Yeah, yeah, it definitely feels like taking away that aspect of getting into trouble like prevents us with coming up with coping mechanisms, right? Like responses to problems, which when people graduate into the real world, then they just don't have those formative skills and aren't able to handle stressful situations.

Ned Johnson: 7:09

Can you think about some kind of you know issue squabble? Things went really off the rails, and then you got it back on the rails. Where you guys or with your friends had that experience of roo ruh and then fixed it that you would not have had had there been an adult there or had it been in a more quote unquote organized activity.

Faris Smith: 7:29

Honestly, I don't. I can't really think of like anything because I I feel like my my whole life I've just I haven't really had the opportunity to just experience things on my own, it's always been by somebody else's rules. So I mean, there are like a couple times where I've been hanging out with my friends, and then we go and like make decisions, and then you know got to figure it out for ourselves. But there are really a ton of times where, like, compared to my parents, where they have so many stories, or like I guess like our generation would say they have so much lore like you know they they have a lot that they experienced and and that helped them develop as just human beings but I think because of everything being so surveilled of course but just like determined for me don't really think I've had the opportunity to just fall down and figure out how to pick myself back up.

Ned Johnson: 8:26

I think the science supports that. I think you are quite right about that. Let me ask this: when I think about third spaces, I'm I'm hearing right now we're sort of more talking about I don't know behaviors, right? Systems, you know, ways of being, but separate from that, you know, third spaces can physically be spaces. What are some of the third spaces that you that you hear your parents talk about with all their lore that you're like, man, that would be really cool if we?

Faris Smith: 8:59

Well, my mom grew up in like the small town of Oklahoma, so they had this like bowling alley that they just all like everyone went to, and there was like three high schools in you know 60 mile radius, and everybody went there to the to that bowling alley, and now they just hung out. There, it really wasn't an adult space. There were all kids that worked there, and then there was like the manager. But even the manager was like 20 something,

Rona Majumder: 9:29

so that was kind of like their third space. It really was an adult driven space. I wouldn't say my parents have as much lore, but my parents. We still like them. My parents were both quite reserved, or my and my dad grew up in India, so the whole culture there-it's more cultural difference.

Ned Johnson: 9:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rona Majumder: 9:53

I think sometimes it's hard for him to fully comprehend like the Western cultures and norms. So he has different reactions to maybe things I want to do, and then because my mom didn't go out as much when she was younger, she has different views as well. So it's for me, it's more of a cultural difference than a generational difference.

Ned Johnson: 10:18

What are some things that you guys would like to be doing that, you feel like you can't be doing either because of the kind of family culture, family expectations, or just generationally where you are right now. When because you've both talked about you'd like some more, you'd like more independence, you'd like spaces free of adults. What are what in addition to bowling? What comes to mind for you?

Faris Smith: 10:37

Honestly, just like having the ability to just exist-I don't like something that's definitely taken for granted by adults. Like you can literally just go to a park and just sit there, and you're not obligated to tell anybody where you are, what you're doing. Just like not living in this like constant state of keeping people in the loop of like what you're doing, you know, not saying just like go off the grid, but just having the ability to just go to a park and read and just exist and not really feel like you have to keep other people in the loop and you know,

Ned Johnson: 11:16

like you have to check in with a warden every half hour.

Rona Majumder: 11:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. So yeah, that would be pretty cool. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think a couple weeks ago, I was out with my friends, and I got home 1130 My curfew was 12, and so we had some extra time. And my friend and I were just hanging out in her car, and we ended up being in her car until 230 ish, right outside my house. But my mom got upset because I didn't tell her what I was doing outside the house, even though she saw my location and knew that I was parked right outside.

Unknown: 11:50

Mom,

Ned Johnson: 11:51

I

Unknown: 11:51

love my mom.

Rona Majumder: 11:52

She's definitely going to be listening to this. I see your viewpoint, but yeah, yeah, I feel like it definitely is something that comes with like being a teenager and not being an adult. I guess by parents, it's viewed as if you're in their house, it's like their rules and you're their responsibility. But it's to a point where it feels like maybe freedom is limited because if I'm out late, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing something bad. It just means that I want to spend time with my friends or connect with someone,

Faris Smith: 12:29

right? And I also feel like there is this kind of feeling of like if you're out and exploring and you know trying to really find who you are and like where your place in the world that's you trying to grow up, and that exploration is no longer part of childhood now. And I just feel like I don't know. I just I think that adults kind of see going and experiencing things as now trying to be an adult and trying to grow up, rather than just that being a natural part of human development.

Ned Johnson: 13:04

Well, it really is an interesting point. If we go back to your picture on your your your the lore, which I adore, by the way, that so many of the things that I think all parents will reflect on. Yeah, when I was a kid, I remember this and this, and they'll tell kind of the the the most unhinged, crazy, you know, hair-raising things that they did, and part of the way that people develop confidence and and I think even more so courage is I dealt with something that was hard. I did something that's scary. Something that was-I mean, you know-I can tell all the stories about my own mayhem, self mostly mostly self-inflicted as a teen, but the hard things that I messed with and situations I put myself into and scrapes that I dealt with are a huge source of the confidence that I have that I can roll with with hard things because I've done hard things in the past, and so I always find it curious the the sort of schism that I think a lot of adults have between parents, especially of well, we did these things and this wasn't this so great, or man, we got we just barely you know escaped, but then wanting to do everything to prevent their own children from having that, as though there's a way from going from being a an infant completely in need of protection from some from somebody else to being fully fledged adults able to protect themselves, and I have a question for you, Ronick, because I heard you say, you know, okay, I'm under my parents' house. It's you know, it's their house. It's their rules. It's their responsibility to you know to keep me safe and to protect me. I'm curious if you guys have given any thought or had a conversation with your parents about when you were an infant, it was their responsibility. As adults, it'll be your responsibility. At what point is it more your responsibility? Do your parents need to step back so that you have more responsibility for keeping yourself? Safe, and therefore, it's really on them less to keep you safe.

Rona Majumder: 15:04

This has been a big topic of conversation in my house recently. Okay, I think for me at least, junior year in high school, when everyone's been getting their license, has been a big change socially, and I feel like I've been going out more with my friends, doing more things independently a lot in part due to like the fact that we can drive places and we don't need a ride get somewhere and it was definitely an adjustment for my parents at first. I know the first time I came home late, they definitely got a little upset at me, even if I was going through drive-throughs with my friend on her birthday,

Ned Johnson: 15:41

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rona Majumder: 15:42

But they just didn't like the fact that I was away from home for so long, and I wasn't updating them enough. Can I can I

Ned Johnson: 15:50

tell you the adult perspective on that? So you are five minutes, 15 minutes, two hours late checking in about wherever you are, the apparent the default setting on the adult parent operating system is she's dead, she's dead, he's dead, they're dead, they're all dead. They've been abducted. They are now being trafficked to some far-flung part of the world. They are currently bound and gagged on a ship, being or they're just dead. You know, I have had those crazy-making thoughts pop into my head when I lose my kid in a grocery store, and she's been abducted. It's like she's in the toy aisle, and so I suspect that your love, loving, lovely parents, Rona, fall into that same default setting that that at least at least that I have fallen into. But the key part for us as adults, is to say, well, you know, really, the most likely thing is that Ron is having just a really good time, or eating way too many French fries at McDonald's in the drive-through, which we don't approve of. But you know, this is part of being an adolescent.

Rona Majumder: 16:53

Yeah, and I think part of we've had a lot of conversations. Part of it is like a mutual understanding. So I understand that even if I don't necessarily see their viewpoint, that it's a very real fear for them, and so I'm. I do my best to like keep my parents updated, and then they've recently come to the understanding. My dad actually he gave me this big speech about a revelation he had. He said he came to the revelation that I'm my own person. Him and my mom. He's been referring to the two of them as old clothes that I've grown out of. And

Ned Johnson: 17:31

I like that

Rona Majumder: 17:32

that metaphor actually a little too much. He used it once, and I was like,"Wow, this is really good. And now he's dropping it every conversation. But that's what

Ned Johnson: 17:40

old people do. We we find something, we just beat it to death. Anyway, keep going.

Rona Majumder: 17:43

Um, but he has recently now he just kind of rolls with whatever I want to do because he's come to the realization that I can drive myself, I can function on my own, I can go out without updating, and I'll be alive. I will be doing my own thing. And well, let's

Ned Johnson: 18:02

pause for a second. Say that's that's really awesome. I mean, two things. I mean, good on him for being able to shift his perspective and see you as an adult or near adult. Maybe you don't have your own credit card yet. Maybe that's a rite of passage. But be able to see you not just as his little girl anymore, but as a you know an adult human being, your own person, and I suspect you might have had something to do with that a little bit. Maybe, maybe just your own responsibility. Maybe pushing them. What do you think helped him feel safe to worry about you less and trust you more? Yep,

Rona Majumder: 18:34

been like a learning curve, and yeah, it's definitely about both of us understanding each other. And I think he's realized. My parents have realized that them like putting restrictions on me. I'm still going to want to do stuff. I'm going to want to do stuff on my own, and they prevent me from doing that. That's just going to cause a resentment. And I mean, Ferris is graduating what in three days, but I I'm graduating.

Ned Johnson: 19:01

Congratulations!

Rona Majumder: 19:02

And they don't want me to like spend the last my last year at home, kind of resenting them. They want to like this to be a fun year for me, for me to cry when I say goodbye to them, not be super happy, you know. So

Ned Johnson: 19:16

yeah, some of the hard work that you and they are doing, then we'll slide back into the third space. Is part of the important work of all adolescents is to individuate from their parents. Right, you're supposed to. You're not supposed to live in the basement for the rest of your life. And the hard part is that's not typically smooth. Right, that tends to be bumpy because people have hard feelings and their their worries and and you know ego and and and all of it. One of the things that I like what you observe because it must be part of the dynamic that your family is trying to figure out how do you do this and well do this in ways that there remains respect and affection and and even some joy in your last year living at home because if you remember. The statistic that for young people who leave the household at age at the end of high school, they will have on average spent 90% of all the time they'll spend with their families, which is a lot. And I suspect that whether that turns out be 90% or 80% or 70% whether you get kind of bonus years with your kids, and the nature of that probably has a lot to do with do people my age treat people your age respectfully, or do we try to keep you under a thumb and then as soon as you can get out, you're you're out and gone. So I'm glad you guys are doing that hard work. Can I ask? So I'm going to pivot from one parental angst to another big parental angst when in third spaces, because a lot of places where young people would naturally have gathered, right? You know, we don't have as many bowling alleys. In order for you guys to connect with friends, with people who are like you, who share your interest, or maybe not 100% share your interest, but you still connect with them, we need to have the opportunity to engage in groups that are bigger than just us that aren't solely for the purpose of does it get me into college,

Unknown: 21:05

right?

Ned Johnson: 21:05

And that's what it strikes me that you guys have talked about these third spaces where you can convene to do whatever it is that you do, and it's not some old guy like me telling here's the plan, kids, and this is what we've got to do, right? You might want an advisor, you might hire a choral director, or you might just go off and form a band by yourself. Go off and do stuff. Now, sometimes the young people get together in ways that are really healthy, that are super constructive, that are very balanced. And sometimes, I don't know, adolescents get together with a certain amount of energy, and things get a little extra.

Faris Smith: 21:40

Yeah. So lately, it's been this thing called teen takeovers, which is basically you know somebody posts on Instagram, TikTok, whatever, and they say, hey, we're gonna meet here, and it's just floods of teens go, and typically fights break out, and you know there's sometimes shootings, things like that, and now the mayor's office and just different people are responding in a way that is kind of is not very healthy. They reached out. I think the mayor's office reached out to scooter companies to now limit where scooters, like lime scooters, bikes, used in parts of DC, there's now an 8 a.m. curfew, which the sun doesn't even go down until. So yeah, so like there's just all these different measures that aren't really tackling the issue at hand, which is why do these teen takeovers become so chaotic, so violent, and why are kids even seeking that kind of environment in the first place?

Ned Johnson: 22:46

So let me do those in reverse order. I mean, one of the things that you guys have alluded to is that you know your your parents when they were young they could go bowling right, and a lot of the third spaces. Maybe we can take a half step back and talk about this. That a lot of third spaces that there just seem to be fewer that are available to younger people. They're less accessible. They're more expensive. They're overly monitor, at least heavily monitored, or they're just you know disappearing altogether. Is that your sense that that these teen takers are are getting are taking place for teens to get together in some you know, instantaneous social media fueled space, because other spaces that might be a more right sized place don't exist for folks. Is that your is that your guess?

Faris Smith: 23:33

Honestly, yeah, I feel like you know people talk about the mall being a third space, and you know all those different places being third spaces, but they do include an element of consumerism. And honestly, you know, right now, like kids can't get a job, like you know. So if everything that you do is involved in like consuming something, paying something, then that gets a little bit, little bit exhausting, and it's not accessible for everybody. That's the whole point, and so that's why I feel like you know the whole teen takeover thing exists is because it doesn't require you to, you know, pay for something. And I don't have to to be there. I just show up and I just hang out with my friends.

Rona Majumder: 24:17

I definitely think like the solution isn't to limit third spaces even more and create more restriction, because if you really like trace back to the root of the problem, it is this lack of third spaces and spaces where teens can express themselves in non-harmful, non-expensive ways. So I think imposing an APM curfew that's just going to make teens want to rebel even more, wanting to do something against like the government or whoever using these restrictions. Whereas if more spaces are opened up, I feel like that gets rid of the need for this attention or space.

Ned Johnson: 24:57

Let me put on the sort of adult parent hat for. Just a moment, and and throw this question to you. You may not know the answers, but I'd love to sort of talk through this a little bit. In these get-togethers, a whole bunch of teens-some who know each other, some who may not know each other-will sort of flood public spaces in a big get-together. And and sometimes things get a little little you know rough, right? There there can be fights. There's even been shootings there as a parent, right? That can sound terrifying, right? Do I want my 1314, 1517-year-old, kid someplace where may get jumped and and and really badly injured or even killed? You know, the argument would be: Well, the mayor, this is your responsibility to make sure the public spaces are safe for for people to be. So then, putting restrictions, flooding police office to the area, you know, restricting mobility or or curfews, that could one can make an argument that that's a rational response to things that get out of hand. How how would you reply to that?

Faris Smith: 25:59

Honestly, I get so I get the whole perspective of like, okay, hey, you know, kids are being very violent, and we have to have like, of course, that adult response with police. And for me, like, I understand why there's police presence and the curfew and whatnot. Do I agree? No, but I do understand why that response has occurred. Don't think that it should just be that by itself without the follow up of wanting to build actual infrastructure around like that fosters a third space. So like parks and you know things like that, not anti homeless you know infrastructure and your focus, right? So yeah, their spaces doesn't have to be a pro. It doesn't have to be a program. It doesn't have to be some structured, surveilled thing by adults. It can simply mean building a park with benches, and that could be a space where kids go.

Ned Johnson: 26:57

Have you guys been to any of these teen takeovers?

Rona Majumder: 26:59

Yeah.

Ned Johnson: 27:00

Okay. And when you when you were there, I mean, you probably saw all kinds of things. You know, some kids being, you know, just what you'd hope, you know, enjoying their company, and some folks getting a little carried away. Did you feel unsafe at all at any point when you were there?

Faris Smith: 27:15

For sure. Like I'm, I'm not even gonna not even lie because I mean, when we talk about third spaces, like you have to also bring into conversation how to uphold those third spaces, and that comes from learning social skills and learning how to kind of just exist. You know, like how to have conversation, and not everything needs to take a violent or you know weird aggressive turn. You know, and it was fun.

Ned Johnson: 27:43

So, can I jump in there for a moment? So, I'm hearing a thread of an argument that if young people had more opportunities for play, for connection, for time with one another that was less structured and less supervised at a younger age, they credibly would have had more opportunities to develop conflict resolution and and cooperation and clear communication and kind of learn how to you know play fair and even sort of fight fair, you know at age when it was two or you know not two when it's four or six or 10 or 12 and develop those skills so that would, by the time they got to be 14, 1617, they would have better tools of communication and more self control.

Rona Majumder: 28:30

Yeah, in my opinion, like adolescence is kind of the most critical period of someone's life. Yeah, because that's when you're still able to like receive new information, create new perceptions, and then once you kind of move into adulthood, I feel like there's a lot more of a fixed mindset, and it's a lot harder to change your views. So that's where again,

Ned Johnson: 28:54

again, no offense taken. MT's new.

Rona Majumder: 28:56

If adults are able to kind of navigate that correctly, then they can really facilitate growth in teenagers. But if teenagers aren't able to grow correctly in that time period, it's so much harder to learn those skills later on in life. Like if you never learn to share on the playground, you're not going to be able to collaborate in work or in the real world.

Ned Johnson: 29:20

Yeah, no, it's. I mean, those are those are guys make excellent points. I'm before I turn the page up. One more question around this, these teen takeovers, and there's there's always a tension between how do we allow young people to navigate the world, navigate the relationships, navigate these situations as much as they can with support. And at some point, if if things get a little bit too out of control or beyond the the skills or the capabilities of young people to have, I don't know, please step in and and provide. Know, back things up a little bit. One thing that I wonder is, in in thinking about how to tackle these problems, do you have a sense that if the administration were to reach out to student representatives, people your age, do you feel like you could have a constructive conversation with them to share your perspective on. We understand we need to have some rules. We need to have some limits, but to think about how to draw those limits in ways that were as effective as possible, so you don't, as you were saying before, Ferris, get kids who are deeply resentful of being in bed at 8o'clock having to be stuck in their houses at 8o'clock when the sun isn't going down to 9o'clock just as summer is starting.

Faris Smith: 30:42

Yeah, honestly, I think it really the conversation does begin with talking to I guess like the issue. I feel like I mean adults are kind of blaming kids for what's going on with like this teen takeover stuff. So why not reach out to said kids who are kind of, I guess, the issue. Why not reach out to kids who are going to these teen takeovers? Right,

Ned Johnson: 31:08

makes sense to me. One of the things that strikes me about the teen takeovers is that they may get more chaotic simply because they've gotten larger. Right, you know that that if you have a a party or a gathering, or some kind of thing, where it's you know you and 20 people that you kind of know, or you and 80 people that you kind of know. But if it goes quickly to 600 people, the chance that you know most these people is very very small. And my suspicion is that there's a greater tendency for people to work to behave in ways that may be socially inappropriate when they perceive this anonymity of large crowds. Do do you agree with that theory? Does that ring true to you or not so much?

Faris Smith: 31:51

I mean, I think like a solution to that would just be to create more spaces. Like I kind of brought up, like you know making parks or just like you know piece of land in a bench. I do feel like if there was more infrastructure that kind of helped limit the congestion when it came to these takeovers, and it's not even I hate to say takeover. I just I like hate that word

Ned Johnson: 32:19

gatherings, gatherings.

Faris Smith: 32:20

Yeah, these like gatherings, right? If kids had spaces to kind of just disperse, and hey, like I can go hang out with my friend, you know, block up, and then like, you know, over there, there's one group. Not say like everybody needs to be spread out and you know whatever, but if I had a space to just go with my friends and we can just hang out there without, like, there being no other space for anybody else to go. Then I do think that we could kind of limit how this violet turned when it comes to like the teen gatherings and whatnot.

Ned Johnson: 32:55

To what degree do you think this is made worse by social media, and I'm not blame everything on social media the way some people are, but how much of the sort of supersizing of these gatherings that go from hey that's fun to oh that's a little overwhelming, how much of that do you think is is really because of social media, or is that just a tool that allows this to expand really quickly?

Rona Majumder: 33:18

I think it definitely is a tool that allows these gatherings to expand quickly, which leads to a lot of problems. Definitely exacerbated, like the size and maybe the chaos being multiplied by a huge factor. But but I also think that like social media can have some benefits in providing an outlet for the teens who maybe aren't able to attend these gatherings or like find peers in person. I know there's been talk about social media being its own third space, which I'm not. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. I have like mixed opinions on it, but there definitely are positives and negatives of

Ned Johnson: 34:00

it. I can imagine social media can be a really, really effective third space if the available places to gather don't feel like these aren't my people. I don't feel safe there. I haven't found people who are into the things that I'm into, and of course, social media, internet, you can connect with people anywhere. So that might be a virtual third space. On the flip side, adults may make the argument. Well, gosh, you know, if you get off your phone, kid, you go outside and meet some kids, you'd have people to spend time with. There's probably an argument to both of those. How do you how do you guys come down on that?

Faris Smith: 34:35

Well, I mean, like you're not going to fit in everywhere, and I think that like everybody knows that, even as an adult, you're not always gonna find your people. You know, like you can go outside as much as you want, but if you can't find what you you get along with, I mean, that's that is is like that for everybody, no matter what. Back to the

Ned Johnson: 34:56

Xbox.

Faris Smith: 34:57

Yeah, no matter what your age is, it's. Like that for everybody, right? So I don't think necessarily getting outside is the solution to, you know, whatever it is. It's just I I do think a digital third space, like having social media, is good sometimes. But I do feel like there are negative impacts, and I mean that whole FOMO thing, fear missing out. That is what's fueling these teen takeover gatherings, right? So

Ned Johnson: 35:27

say more about that for for parents who don't who don't quite get that yet.

Faris Smith: 35:32

Well, I mean, so you see, like these posts on Instagram, right? And all your friends are going, and you know, you even people you don't know. Like, there's 1000s of likes and reposts, and everybody's sharing it, and everybody wants to go. And you're like, I want to go. Since everybody else wants to go, I want to go, right? And that's like kind of a follower mentality. But like, that is what is driving it. If everybody else wants to go, then I want to go, and I don't want to be the one that's like the odd one out because I didn't want to go, and a lot of kids are truly, truly, truly craving community, and that is is it's like kind of distorted, but like that's their percent community, right? So yeah, nobody wants to miss out on the opportunity to connect with other people.

Ned Johnson: 36:20

Yeah, the the technologist Dana Boyd said she said it's not that teens are addicted to technology, it's that teens are addicted to other teens, and it just happens to be that social media is the mechanism for that.

Rona Majumder: 36:34

Another aspect of it, it's not social media isn't just about people you don't know and connecting with new people. It's also there's a big role that it plays within like dynamics at your school or with friends. Like, for example, a friend group can't really go out without like someone else knowing. So, if you want to go out maybe with like three or four people out of a group of like 10, everyone else is going to find out somehow. And I feel like

Ned Johnson: 37:01

oh wow,

Rona Majumder: 37:02

like I know when I'm making group plans, I always need to think about the dynamics of like who am I not inviting that's going to want to have come to this. And with that, it kind of comes down to it's a lot easier for me to make plans with my friends who don't have social media because I know they're not gonna like feel as badly if they're not invited, and like there's no malice in not inviting them. It's just sometimes you don't want to hang out with all your friends at once. But yeah,

Ned Johnson: 37:30

no, it's so true. I mean, you know, one thing we know from developmentally, social exclusion is never never feels good because it's it's built literally that those emotional the emotional pain centers are built on the same networks, same neural networks as physical pain. So social rejection feels really terrible at any age, but way more intense for people your age. Which you know, so so hence you've got that real quandary. I sit there and think about you know my friends. If I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not tracking them on social media all the while. And so, if someone, if Don goes off and has a dinner party with you know, or dinner with someone else, I don't really know because I don't. I mean, to say that I don't care overstates a little bit, but I don't. Are you guys track? How should I say this? Are you always mindful of where your friends are and what they're doing, like all the time.

Faris Smith: 38:24

Honestly, yeah, yeah, a little, yeah. I think like, yeah, my friends are like my family, so I do care about like what they're doing. I mean, I don't really feel I'm the type where like I don't really feel any type of way. Like if you're hanging out with like a whole bunch of people, and like I'm mutual friends with them. You didn't find me. Like I'm not gonna feel any type of way because that's just how I am. But I do kind of pay attention to like what my friends are doing, and like I like stay updated on their lives or whatnot. And a lot of times that's through social media. But yeah, yeah, and sometimes

Rona Majumder: 39:00

it's like inadvertent, like maybe you're trying to avoid seeing a bunch of stuff. Like

Ned Johnson: 39:06

if

Rona Majumder: 39:06

someone didn't go to prom,

Unknown: 39:08

right?

Rona Majumder: 39:09

But then you open Instagram and see every single person is posting there, and it's like you know. Sometimes it's hard to avoid, and it just kind of happens to be the fact that you find out what everyone's doing without choosing to. Yeah,

Ned Johnson: 39:24

yeah, that sounds really complex. When you think about this, is there any way that your parents or other adults can help you navigate that stuff, or does it only make it worse when parents get involved there?

Faris Smith: 39:41

I feel like it only makes it worse. Yeah, it it it only makes it worse because I feel like adults really. I'm not gonna say like adults don't know how to operate social media, but like you know, well,

Ned Johnson: 39:52

you you probably to be will find the middle ground. The way my suspicion is the way that people your age operate in social media. Is simply different than the way people my age operate social media. So, what I think you should do probably is deeply ignorant of the world that you, the social world that you inhabit.

Rona Majumder: 40:10

Definitely, it's just kind of a thing where, because social media is almost a second world, you have to experience it and experience the norms to fully understand, like the way that it

Unknown: 40:23

operates

Rona Majumder: 40:24

and the way that we use it to communicate, or just kind of show our lives.

Ned Johnson: 40:29

When you think about social media writ large, I suspect that you, like everybody else on the planet, has mixed feelings about it. On average, are you more happy? I mean, if you could make it disappear for you and all of your friends. Would you have it or would you not have it? I was. Does it depend on the day? Would not have

Faris Smith: 40:46

it. If I'm being honest, like social media is great, and it's really good for the people who don't have a community who are really looking for a community. You know, you had like those niche little interest, and you can connect with someone from wherever in the world, right? But I personally am not the biggest fan of social media as like it as its role in just child development,

Ned Johnson: 41:16

yeah,

Faris Smith: 41:17

just society today. I just don't. I feel like we're kind of better off without

Rona Majumder: 41:22

it. Yeah, I definitely like agree that if I could erase it for everyone, I would. Yeah, but I wouldn't erase it for myself because yeah,

Ned Johnson: 41:30

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rona Majumder: 41:31

That like if I didn't have it, but everyone else did, it would be so hard to like navigate everything because it's so built into our lives.

Faris Smith: 41:38

Yeah, it's like such like an all or nothing kind of concept, like if everybody had it or everybody didn't have it, then it would be perfectly fine. I think a lot of the social skills are just parts of life now that were existed that existed 30 years ago or like 40 years ago that don't exist now. We could kind of start to build those back, but if you're the only person in your friend group that doesn't have social media, it's kind of like, like you know, it's kind of awkward and it's a little uncomfortable, and it is kind of a form of capital. Like I'm not, yeah,

Ned Johnson: 42:13

yeah, yeah. Jonathan Haidt in the book The Anxious Generation, they did some survey of teens and asked them how much would I have to pay you to give up all your social media accounts? And I think the average was like 520-$6 or something like this. And then ask them, well, how much would we have to pay you if all of your if if all of your friends also didn't have social media? And people like I would pay to not have social media if my friends didn't have it because it's again it's not the social media; it's the connection there, which brings us back to where we started: third spaces and and and creating opportunities for all people, but in this case, you know, people your age to have spaces to connect with with one another in ways that are meaningful and valuable and and and probably more authentic and and rich than just we do on social media. So before I run away from you guys, what kind of have you you've spent time thinking about this? If you had suggestions to the oldsters about what they should be doing, I'd love to hear it. Like, what would you suggest to people in schools? What would you suggest to parents, and what would you suggest to policymakers? Let's start with what would you suggest to parents.

Faris Smith: 43:27

I would suggest surveilling less and not letting your own anxieties control your parenting style. I do think that a lot of parenting is kind of anxiety driven,

Ned Johnson: 43:40

and

Rona Majumder: 43:41

that puts a level of anxiety on the kid too. So I think just trying to parent without just like the idea that something is going to go wrong at every second may just help a little bit more. And you can jump in. Yeah, I definitely think like understanding. I think we've touched on this a lot. Is the key, really, on both ends. And I think keeping an open communication with your children and not kind of having the mindset that I'm the parent, so it's my rules. Like we have to go with what I say. I think seeing your kid as an equal, and understanding that they have a lot of emotions and a lot of viewpoints that are maybe like amplified by the fact that you're a teenager and like still adjusting to the world, and understanding that, and understanding that maybe putting more restrictions doesn't give the space to grow that a kid might need.

Ned Johnson: 44:41

Yeah, if you put those two things together, I think it is very easy for parents and adults generally to do things to make sure that kids feel safe. In part because it makes parents feel less stressed, but by adult behaviors to help kids feel or be safe. Or the other, we deprive young people of the opportunity to feel brave. Yeah, which is probably not a great trade-off. Okay, what would you say to the educators in your life?

Faris Smith: 45:11

Honestly, I think our teacher, mr. Lopellato, does a does a really good job of like kind of

Ned Johnson: 45:19

shout out to mr. Heckelman. Yeah, he's the

Faris Smith: 45:22

best. best. He does a really good job of kind of like fostering third spaces in a way that isn't necessarily like educator driven or whatever. For example, our school does a thing called Baron Palooza, and yeah, it's like technically a school event, but it's like all student led, like it's student based, and the school is basically just a venue. It's just a place, and everything is just created by students. It's for students, and so that's kind of like in itself a little bit of a third space. But that's an example how like educators can help. I mean, he helped sponsor the event, but it's solely for students by students, kind of. So, oh,

Ned Johnson: 46:01

I love it.

Rona Majumder: 46:01

That's really like giving the opportunities to students and then letting them do with those opportunities what they want. And the two of us, we went to a conference in LA all about student agency and student autonomy, and you did too. And a lot of what we were talking,

Ned Johnson: 46:18

you guys nailed it. Yep, is

Rona Majumder: 46:21

project based learning and student-driven learning, where students are kind of given the opportunity to take learning into their own hands, and that takes away a lot of resentment associated with school and learning. Like it can actually be fun if you're creating your own projects or investigations, and

Ned Johnson: 46:39

you can almost have third spaces within a second space of school,

Rona Majumder: 46:42

yeah, for sure.

Ned Johnson: 46:44

I love it. All right, and if you were going to talk to Mayor Muriel Bowser or any other any other policymaker who you know who have the best interest of a of young people as well, if in part because you guys are not far away from being able to vote and they want your vote, so there's that.

Rona Majumder: 47:00

I would say I definitely think there's a little bit of like a lack of understanding between teenagers and the government, perhaps. I don't think policies really represent teenagers' best interests, and maybe it's adults' perceptions of teenagers' best interests. But it's very hard for young people to get involved in politics, even if that's maybe something they're interested in. There are so many barriers to involvement, and I think maybe something that could be a possible solution or something that could make it better is having more open discussions with teenagers or being able to allow them to contribute to conversations like we have the student member of the board in Germany County Public Schools, who's a student elected by other students in the county, and who gets a say on the school board and different issues in the county school. Yeah,

Faris Smith: 47:57

yeah. I would also just on topic of third spaces, like I would definitely stress the importance of building infrastructure that is not like based on getting something. You know what I mean? Like consuming something. We talk about malls and all those different things, and those are great, but those aren't necessarily third spaces if they include consuming something or paying for if I have to feed, that's not necessarily a third space. So I would definitely stress looking at the issue from a different perspective and how we can build something more sustainable, and that can simply mean just building a park for kids to just go and hang out. Or there's like places here in Montgomery County that like there's this huge giant chess set, and like people like you know go and play with these like big chess juicers and like you know that kind of thing. It's it's just something to just have fun, right? And so that

Ned Johnson: 48:57

men sauna and corpora sauna with the sound mind and sound sound body. Look, you're developing your cognitive skills and your biceps. So, give me one last thing. One reason why you think people my age should be optimistic about people your age and the world that you are creating.

Rona Majumder: 49:13

I mean, you were all teenagers once too. And look

Ned Johnson: 49:17

at us

Rona Majumder: 49:20

now. So cliched to say like we are the future, but it's very true. Like we are the people who are growing into the next generation. We're going to be the policymakers

Ned Johnson: 49:30

in

Rona Majumder: 49:31

few decades, and I think the way that we're being shaped right now, the way we're kind of adapting to the world, is very different from past generations, and there are there are a lot of skills I feel like we've had to build. Generations haven't, and I think that can give a sense of optimism because we are resourceful and like able to adapt. We we grew up in a pandemic was part of like a

Ned Johnson: 49:56

big

Rona Majumder: 49:57

our childhood, and so we know how to respond. Challenges, and I think that's going to be a really useful skill for us as we grow into adults.

Faris Smith: 50:06

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think compared to other generations, we've had to deal with so many issues. I mean, AI, the pandemic, like all of these issues that are encroaching upon our development

Unknown: 50:19

as

Faris Smith: 50:19

you know, kids, whatever, but we've adapted, and I think our adaptability speaks to so much. And if we can adapt now as like kids, just

Ned Johnson: 50:30

yep,

Faris Smith: 50:31

who knows? I I

Ned Johnson: 50:32

love it. I will have to find for you. Right as the pandemic was dropping, March of 2020, I wrote an article for the Washington Post about just the points that you guys were raised-that this is going to be hard and challenge all people, but especially young people whose brains are being developed in ways that my brain-I'm trying to hold on to what little I've got-and might this, might these obstacles, these barriers that that young people and all people have to surmount to get through this. Might this be the source of great future resilience? In the same way that you know we used to talk about the greatest generation, right? The people who grew up during the Depression and then the Second World War and really hard stuff, but came to be thought of as the greatest generation, not in spite of but perhaps because of the hard things that they had to deal with, so I love those thoughts from both of you. That you know, people my age should probably work a little bit harder to respect people your age because at some point you're going to be in charge, and that we should look with greater regard at the hard things that you guys have already overcome to give us confidence in the hard problems that we haven't tackled or solved-that ideally you will, because someone's got to do it, man. Okay. Well, Ferris and Mona, thanks so much for for joining me for this conversation. Maybe we'll have to have you guys back and do this again. It's um, you know, talking about as you know, I I adore the adolescent brain and teenagers generally, and so it's really fun to talk with you guys about this. You guys are terrific.

Rona Majumder: 52:07

Thank you so much.

Ned Johnson: 52:09

Thanks. Enjoy your summer in all those third spaces you find. Thanks. Teens crave autonomy, independence, and adult-free spaces, and this is a totally developmentally appropriate craving. We adults worry when we're not present to prevent all the things that could possibly go wrong, but even teens know that they cannot learn to handle tricky situations if they're never allowed to try to learn them on their own. There is an increasing adult presence in teen life, and an increasing adult presence in teen activities. Teens feel that even when adults try to create an event that feels like it is teen-driven, there will be adults surveilling, making sure no one is getting into trouble. While teens might understand that it's valid for adults to want to prevent poor choices, they would ask, "Isn't making mistakes and learning from them part of what builds character? We heard from our guests that teens are less likely to have the opportunity to just experience things on their own and be allowed to fall down and figure out how to pick themselves back up. We know that having the opportunity to handle something hard as a teenager helps them grow into confident, resilient adults who can handle even harder things. A third space, as helpfully defined by our teen sociologists and advocates, is outside of school, outside of work, and a place where you can just exist. A third space is a place to connect with friends and a place free of obligations, in addition to feeling free of obligations, a successful third space has no hierarchy. Teens are asking policymakers to address the root causes of teen takeovers, which is the lack of safe, free, and accessible spaces for teens to gather and socialize. What are some things that teens wish their parents knew? If I'm out late, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing something bad. Just means that I want to spend some time with my friends or connect with someone. And if you're out and exploring and you know trying to find who you are and where your place is in the world, that's you trying to grow up, and that exploration is no longer part of childhood now. I'm Ned Johnson, and this is the Self-Diven Child Podcast. Hey, folks! Over the past 25 years, I've talked to countless parents of high school-age students who care deeply about their kids' education and how they deal with stress and the pressure to succeed. It can help parents to work with a team they trust won't just pile on more pressure to achieve better scores and grades. That's why I founded Prep Matters in 1997 to create a different kind of experience for test preparation and academic tuition. This podcast and my books with my friend Bill Stixrood reflect our company philosophy and approach to helping students. If you have a high school age student and would like to talk about putting a plan together, please get in touch with us. Visit our website at prepmatters.com, or while your kids may only text, you might want to actually talk with a person, if so, you can reach us at 301-951-0350